17 May 2013

How many has God killed? Complete list and estimated total (Including Apocryphal killings)

Drunk With Blood Audiobook: Introduction
I kill ... I wound ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and mine sword shall devour flesh. -- Deuteronomy 32:39-42
The table shows two numbers: the number given by the Bible, if any, and an estimate, when no biblical number is available.

Total number killed by God in the Bible
- Using biblical numbers only: 2,821,364
 - With estimates: 25 million

(The table has been updated to include God's killings in the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical books. I'll be adding the missing Apocryphal stories in the next few days.)

Killing Event Reference Bible's Number Estimate
1 The Flood of Noah Gen 7:23 20,000,000
2 Abraham's war to rescue Lot Gen 14:17-19 1,000
3 Sodom and Gomorrah Gen 19:24 2,000
4 Lot's wife Gen 19:26 1 1
5 While they were sore, Dinah's brethren slew all the males Gen 34:1-31, Judith 9:2-3 2 1,000
6 Er for being wicked in the sight of the Lord Gen 38:7 1 1
7 Onan for spilling his seed Gen 38:10 1 1
8 A seven year worldwide famine Gen 41:25-54 70,000
9 There will be blood: The first plague of Egypt Ex 7:15-27 , Wis 11:7-8 10,000
10 The seventh plague: hail Ex 9:25 300,000
11 Firstborn Egyptian children Ex 12:29-30 500,000
12 The Lord took off their chariot wheels Ex 14:8-26 600 5,000
13 Amalekites Ex 17:13 1,000
14 Who is on the Lord's side?: Forcing friends and family to kill each other Ex 32:27-28 3,000 3,000
15 Aaron's golden calf Ex 32:35 1,000
16 God burns Aaron's sons to death for offering "strange fire" Lev 10:1-3 2 2
17 A blasphemer is stoned to death Lev 24:10-23 1 1
18 When the people complained, God burned them to death Num 11:1 100
19 While the flesh was still between their teeth, the Lord smote them will a very great plague Num 11:33 10,000
20 Ten scouts are killed for their honest report Num 14:35-45 10 110
21 A man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day is stoned to death Num 15:32-35 1 1
22 Korah, his companions, and their families are buried alive Num 16:27 3 9
23 God burns 250 people to death for burning incense Num 16:35 250 250
24 God kills 14,700 for complaining about God's killings Num 16:49 14,700 14,700
25 The massacre of the Aradies Num 21:1-2 3,000
26 God sent serpents to bite people for complaining about the lack of food and water Num 21:6 100
27 Phineas's double murder: A killing to end God's killing Num 25:1-11 24,002 24,002
28 The Midianite massacre: Have ye saved all the women alive? Num 31:1-35 6 200,000
29 God slowly killed the Israelite army Dt 2:14-16 500,000
30 God the giant killer Dt 2:21-22 5,000
31 God hardens King Sihon's heart so all his people can be killed Dt 2:33-34 1 5,000
32 Og and all the men women, and children in 60 cities Dt 3:6 1 60,000
33 The Jericho massacre Jos 6:21 1,000
34 Achan and his family Jos 7:10-26 1 5
35 The Ai massacre Jos 8:1-25 12,000 12,000
36 God stops the sun so Joshua can get his killing done in the daylight Jos 10:10-11 5,000
37 Five kings killed and hung on trees Jos 10:26 5 10,000
38 Joshua utterly destroyed all that breathed as the Lord commanded Jos 10:28-42 7 7,000
39 The genocide of twenty cities: There was not any left to breathe Jos 11:8-12 2 20,000
40 The Anakim: some more giant killing Jos 11:20-21 5,000
41 The Lord delivered the Canaanites and Perizzites Jg 1:4 10,000 10,000
42 The Jerusalem massacre Jg 1:8 1,000
43 Five massacres, a wedding, and God-proof iron chariots Jg 1:9-25 5,000
44 The Lord delivered Chushanrishathaim Jg 3:7-10 1 1,000
45 Ehud delivers a message from God Jg 3:15-22 1 1
46 God delivers 10,000 lusty Moabites Jg 3:28-29 10,000 10,000
47 Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an ox goad Jg 3:31 600 600
48 Barak and God massacre the Canaanites Jg 4:15-16 1,000
49 Jael pounds a tent stake through a sleeping man's skull Jg 4:18-22 1 1
50 Gideon's story: The Lord set every man's sword against his fellow Jg 7:22 120,000 120,000
51 A city is massacred and 1000 burn to death because of God's evil spirit Jg 9:23-27 1,001 2,000
52 The Ammonite massacre Jg 11:32-33 20,000
53 Jephthah's daughter Jg 11:39 1 1
54 42,000 die for failing the "shibboleth" test Jg 12:4-7 42,000 42,000
55 Samson murdered 30 men for their clothes Jg 14:19 30 30
56 Samson killed 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass Jg 15:14-15 1,000 1,000
57 Samson killed 3000 in a suicide terrorist attack Jg 16:27-30 3,000 3,000
58 A holy civil war (it had something to do with rotting concubine body part messages) Jg 20:35-37 65,100 65,100
59 The end of Judges: two genocides and 200 stolen virgins Jg 21:10-14 4,000
60 God killed Eli's sons and 34,000 Israelite soldiers 1 Sam 2:25, 4:11 34,002 34,002
61 God smote them with hemorrhoids in their secret parts 1 Sam 5:1-12 3,000
62 50,070 killed for looking into the ark of the Lord 1 Sam 6:19 50,070 50,070
63 The Lord thundered a great thunder upon the Philistines 1 Sam 7:10-11 1,000
64 Another Ammonite massacre (and another God-inspired body part message) 1 Sam 11:6-13 1,000
65 Jonathan's first slaughter 1 Sam 14:12-14 20 20
66 God forces the Philistines to kill each other 1 Sam 14:20 1,000
67 The Amalekite genocide 1 Sam  15:2-3 10,000
68 Samuel hacks Agag to death before the Lord 1 Sam 15:32-33 1 1
69 In the valley of Elah: Goliath 1 Sam 17:51, 2 Sam 21:19 1 1
70 David buys a wife with 200 Philistine foreskins 1 Sam  18:27 200 200
71 The Lord said to David, Go and smite the Philistines 1 Sam 23:2-5 10,000
72 God killed Nabal (and David got his wife and other stuff) 1 Sam 25:38 1 1
73 David commits random acts of genocide for the Philistines 1 Sam 27:8-11 60,000
74 David spends the day killing Amalekites 1 Sam 30:17 1,000
75 God kills Saul, his sons, and his soldiers (because Saul didn't kill all the Amalekites) 1 Sam 31:2, 2 Chr 10:6 4 100
76 David kills the messenger 2 Sam 1:15 1 1
77 David killed, mutilated, and hung Rechab and Baanah 2 Sam 4:12 2 2
78 God helps David smite the Philistines from the front and the rear 2 Sam 5:19-25 2,000
79 God killed Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling 2 Sam 6:6-7, 1 Chr 13:9-10 1 1
80 David killed two-thirds of the Moabite POWs and enslaved the rest 2 Sam 8:2 667
81 And the Lord gave David victory wherever he went 2 Sam 8 - 10 65,850 66,850
82 David killed every male in Edom 2 Sam 8:13-14, 1 Kg 11:15-16, 1 Chr 18:12, Ps 60:1 15,000 25,000
83 Thus did David do to all the children of Ammon 2 Sam 11:1, 1 Chr 20:1 1,000
84 God slowly kills a baby 2 Sam 12:14-18 1 1
85 Seven sons of Saul are hung up before the Lord 2 Sam 21:1-9 7 3,000
86 David's mighty men and their amazing killings 2 Sam 23, 1 Chr 11 1,403 3,400
87 God killed 70,000 because of David had a census that God (or Satan) told him to do 2 Sam 24:15, 1 Chr 21:14 70,000 200,000
88 Solomon murdered Job and Shimei (per David's deathbed wish) 1 Kg 2:29-46 2 2
89 A tale of two prophets 1 Kg 13:11-24 1 1
90 Jeroboam's son: God kills another child 1 Kg 14:17 1 1
91 Jeroboam's family 1 Kg 15:29 10
92 Baasha's family and friends 1 Kg 16:11-12 20
93 Zimri burns to death 1 Kg 16:18-19 1 1
94 The drought of Elijah 1 Kg 17:1, Luke 4:25, James 5:17-18 3,000
95 Elijah kills 450 religious leaders in a prayer contest 1 Kg 18:22-40 450 450
96 The first God-assisted slaughter of the Syrians 1 Kg 20:20-21 10,000
97 God killed 100,000 Syrians for calling him a god of the hills 1 Kg 20:28-29 100,000 100,000
98 God killed 27,000 Syrians by making a wall fall on them 1 Kg 20:30 27,000 27,000
99 God sent a lion to kill a man for not smiting a prophet 1 Kg 20:35-36 1 1
100 God killed Ahab for not killing a captured king 1 Kg 20:42, 22:35 1 1
101 God burned 102 men to death for asking Elijah to come down from his hill 2 Kg 1:10-12 102 102
102 God killed Ahaziah for asking the wrong God 2 Kg 1:16-17, 2 Chr 22:7-9 1 1
103 God sent bears to kill 42 boys for making fun of a prophet's bald head 2 Kg 2:23-24 42 42
104 The Lord delivered the Moabites 2 Kg 3:18-25 5,000
105 A skeptic is trampled to death 2 Kg 7:2-20 1 1
106 God's seven year famine 2 Kg 8:1 7,000
107 Jehoram of Israel 2 Kg 9:24 1 1
108 Jezebel 2 Kg 9:33-37 1 1
109 Ahab's sons: 70 heads in two baskets 2 Kg 10:6-10 70 70
110 Ahab's hometown family, friends, and priests 2 Kg 10:11 20
111 Jehu killed Ahaziah's family 2 Kg 10:12-13, 2 Chr 22:7-9 42 42
112 Jehu and his partner kill the rest of Ahab's family 2 Kg 10:17 20
113 Jehu assembled the followers of Baal and then slaughtered them all 2 Kg 10:18-25 1,000
114 Mattan the priest of Baal and Queen Athaliah 2 Kg 11:17-20 2 2
115 God sent lions to eat those who didn't fear him enough 2 Kg 17:25-26 10
116 An angel killed 185,000 sleeping soldiers 2 Kg 19:34, 37:36 185,000 185,000
117 God caused King Sennacherib to be killed by his sons 2 Kg 19:37, Tobit 1:21 1 1
118 Josiah killed all the priests of the high places 2 Kg 23:20 100
119 Just another holy war 1 Chr 5:18-22 50,000
120 God killed a half million Israelite soldiers 2 Chr 13:17-18 500,000 500,000
121 Jeroboam 2 Chr 13:20 1 1
122 God killed a million Ethiopians 2 Chr 14:9-14 1,000,000 1,000,000
123 Friendly fire: God forced "a great multitude" to kill each other 2 Chr 20:22-25 30,000
124 God made Jehoram's bowels fall out 2 Chr 21:14-19 1 1
125 God killed Jehoram's sons 2 Chr 22:1 3
126 Ahaziah of Judah 2 Chr 22:7-8 1 1
127 Joash, the princes, and army of Judah 2 Chr 24:20-25 1 10,000
128 God destroyed Amaziah 2 Chr 25:15-27 1 1,000
129 God smote Ahaz with the king of Syria 2 Chr 28:1-5 1 10,000
130 God killed 120,000 valiant men for forsaking him 2 Chr 28:6 120,000 120,000
131 The fall of Jerusalem 2 Chr 36:16-17 10,000
132 The Purim killings: God hath done these things Esther 2 - 9, 10:4 75,813 75,813
133 God and Satan kill Job's children and slaves Job 1:18-19 10 60
134 Hananiah Jer 28:15-16 1 1
135 Ezekiel's wife Ezek 24:15-18 1 1
136 Oh! Susanna Dan 13:6-62 2 2
137 Judith is blessed above all women (for cutting off a sleeping man's head) Judith 13:6-10 1 1
138 The Judith massacre: hang ye up this head upon our walls Judith 15:1-6 1,000
139 Mathathias's double murder 1 Mac 2:24-25 2 2
140 Mathathias and his friends slay the wicked sinners 1 Mac 2:44 100
141 God killed Andronicus, the sacrilegious wretch 2 Mac 4:38 1 1
142 A Jewish mob killed Lysimachus, the sacrilegious fellow 2 Mac 4:42 1 1
143 God helped Judas Machabeus destroy the wicked 1 Mac 3:1-26, 2 Mac 8:5-6 800 4,900
144 Judas and his unarmed men kill 3000 of Gorgias's soldiers 1 Mac 3:44-4:24 3,000 3,000
145 The Hanukkah killings 1 Mac 4:34-5:7 5,000 17,000
146 The Machabees brothers slaughter the heathens 1 Mac 5:21-51 11,000 37,000
147 Nicanor's army: The Almighty being their helper, they slew above nine thousand men 1 Mac 7:32-47, 2 Mac 8:24, 15:27 147,002 147,002
148 Jonathan and Simon destroy the wicked out of Israel 1 Mac  9:46-49, 2 Mac  8:30-33, 10:61 1,000 1,200
149 Five heavenly horsemen cast darts and fireballs at the enemy 2 Mac 8:32-10:38 21,103 21,400
150 God killed Antiochus with an incurable bowel disease 2 Mac 9:5-28 1 1
151 Idumeans, traitors, and Jews in two towers 2 Mac 10:16-17 40,000 40,100
152 Nicanor's head: A manifest sign of the help of God 1 Mac 7:33-48, 2 Mac  15:1-35 35,000 35,000
153 Aliens at Cades 1 Mac 11:74 3,000 3,000
154 John burns to death 2000 in the tower of Azotus 1 Mac 16:10 2,000 2,000
155 God sent wasps to slowly destroy people Wisdom 12:8-9 1,000
156 Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:5-10 2 2
157 Herod Aggripa Acts 12:23 1 1
158 Jesus Rom 8:32, 1 Pet 1:1820 1 1
Totals 2,821,364 24,994,828

583 comments:

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worker11811 said...

dutchlionfrans53 - Thank you for taking time to post your opinion.

Your response was over 300 words long, however, you did not provide the answer as to what your choice would be to the situation as described.

Can you provide your choice? Thanks again!

worker11811 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
All under contract said...

On the list above it is easy to see that a change took place with the coming of the newest writings or New Testament. It was the establishing of a new covenant with God from which all of mankind is now being offered God's grace and mercy.

What I see today as the biggest Holocaust is the killing of unborn children, mostly by those who do not believe in God or who have chosen to turn from Him. That number is certainly, by now, in the millions.

White Charcoal said...

Seeing as how god(s) only exist in the mind, I don't see how any god can take the blame for even one death.

But then again, I suppose it IS apocryphal.

worker11811 said...

"What I see today as the biggest Holocaust is the killing of unborn children, mostly by those who do not believe in God or who have chosen to turn from Him. That number is certainly, by now, in the millions."

Agreed. Abortion is a terrible thing for mankind to do. Hopefully this, and other things like war, will be soon eliminated. It is up to mankind to make it happen.

Unfortunately, as bad as abortion is on the part of mankind, God choses to send them all to hell. Why? Because they did not get to know and accept Jesus. Acts 4:12, John 14:6. No exceptions. Seems fair, doesn't it?

Kent Noller said...

The isms are alive and doing a great job of genocide with out the help of a higher power. Christ, in the new covenant ask all mankind to live in peace. Men have chosen to twist and pervert what He requested and call
it religion or ideology. Each person is responsible for their decision on how to treat others each day.

Unknown said...

A seven year famine only killed 70,000? That's...not much.

broknprism said...

I'm glad you posted this, because I was not looking forward to doing the research myself. I hold to the inerrancy of Scripture ("in its original autograph...") but I admit the numbers I've seen lately (which led me here) have raised my eyebrows. I'd like to think that if 185,000 Assyrians died in one night by mysterious means, SOMEbody would chisel that into a rock somewhere. Maybe they did, and it's still under sand. Anyway, I'm going to ask a knowledgeable Theologian how he reconciles this. Regardless of the answer, I will continue to believe the Bible in all its particulars. It all makes perfect sense, not just to me, but on its face. The issue with unbelievers is that they specifically lack the receptor (a regenerated soul) required to 'hear' and comprehend it. It's not a book for unbelievers, and makes no sense to them. Whether the numbers are plausible or not, the concept remains that we are all under a death sentence for possessing a nature derived from our federal head (Adam), for our own individual sinful lives, and we all deserve to die. That He saves some at all is graciousness unwarranted by the facts of our personal evil, individual or corporate, but I'll take it! Who wouldn't?! What baffles me is that He spared 8 from the flood. Should have been a clean sweep. How do you make sourdough? A starter from the original batch. We are what we were at our worst.

countusin2 said...

I have been seeking the truth. I am as confused as most of you. there seems to be two GOD's in bible. one a loving, all powerful GOD. the other a mutative, less powerful GOD! Something is getting ready to happen. I can't tell you what, but I can tell you what GOD told me when he saved me from cancer. "what you think is happening is not whats happening"
GOD Bless you and remember things are not as they seem...

AesopsRetreat said...

How do you think those deaths compare to those by the likes of Stalin, Lenin, MAO, Pol Pot, Hitler, and Kim Il Sung, whose combined death count reaches between 220 and 300 Million?

All non-religion, other than the religion of Socialism.

1. Adolf Hitler – 11 million
2. Joseph Stalin – 20 to 100 million
3. Lenin – 26 million
4. Mao Zedong – 50 to 70 million
5. Mussolini – 500,000
6. Idi Amin – 300,000
7. Jean Kambanda – 500,000
8. Kim Il Sung – 600,000
9. Pol Pot – around 1 million

SJ Cinco said...

He is only a bad God if you see death as a bad thing. Is it evil when evil people die? The people in the OT that were killed were evil except for the children. So, is it better for a child to die young and receive eternity with God or grow to partake in the sins of the parents and culture and lose eternity? I am not talking about mild sin but perpetual sin of the worst types. If my two year old dies today is that bad? My human mind would say: it is AWFUL! But, what if God in his grace and mercy had a purpose in that. What if today, he receives eternity but if he grows up, he becomes a terrorist and kills 1000 people. Our thinking is so limited that is why we think the deaths are bad. Read Genesis and the seduction of Eve as a literal sexual seduction that brought evil seed into the human race. Look at the murder of Abel and how Satan is called a murderer from the beginning. Read the Gospels and see the context of Jesus telling people their father was Satan. Read about seeds and good and bad seeds in the Bible. The proof is right there, all over the Bible, however, the American church will say: NO, NO, etc. I can see why no one would like the God the American church portrays. The talk in such double speak saying He is in control of everything and he could have stopped a disaster that killed 250k but He chose not to. Well, if the OT is accurate then He didn't NOT stop it, He did it! That is a God I can understand bc if He did it, He has a just reason to do it, but if He just didn't stop it, then WHAT??? Read the OT, the gospels and Revelation and see if you can see a BIG picture that makes sense regardless of attempts of the American church to confuse and turn us all away from the TRUE God.

Sean Croxton said...

It's interesting off topic but Jewish people do not believe in hell or heaven.

sean

Tom Vouray said...

@SJ - your post invokes God's plan and how we should not question it. Here's a question for you: what is God's plan? What is your biblical support for God's plan. A word search reveals that the words "plan" and "plans" do not appear in the KJV of the bible. It would appear that 'God's plan' is a convenient way to explain things by referencing something that can not be verified.

Martha Simms said...

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FredD B said...

Hey, on number 155.. I cant find that in Wisdom chapter 11. It talks about a flood and new animals dealing out punishments, but it doesn't say anything about how many killed. Did you post the wrong passage, or am I missing something? Did you mean the Wisdom of Solomon or the Wisdom of Sirach?

Kantanshi said...

For those of you christians posting here that "God" is the creator of all and has the right to end the lives of people... Consider this for a moment. By saying he has the right because he is the creator of a being, does that not also imply that since a woman is the creator of a life that they also have the right to end that life? By your own words you are saying that abortion is acceptable.

makc said...

Why stop at Jesus? Look at Acts chapter 5, God kills two people for taxes evasion. Well, maybe they just had heart attack, but I mean come on.

Personally, I think Peter killed them. But then, I think jews killed egyptian newborns themselves, too.

Tom Vouray said...

@sec uz:

It must be a terrible way to live your life, in constant fear. It is a shame that your belief in God has not brought you peace, but rather fear and paranonia. Sad, really.

RJ King said...

I guess He did not mean it when He said. Thou Shalt NOT Kill. He ordered more murders than a mafia don.

Tom Vouray said...

God: do as I say, not as I do.

Gilmar Daniel said...

You often confuse Christians to the Old Testament Jews ...
Christians, true do not follow the Old Testament.
If someone tells you you are Christian and that follows the Old Testament is wrong and not Christian!
Now Christ died to establish new covenant and this is represented by New Testament.
If any atheist show me Christ making incitement to violence in the New Testament I leave to be Christian.

Hug.

Gilmar Daniel said...

I will defend the atheists here:
I consider that all the atheists can not be held responsible for what some atheists, such as Mao Zedong (Mao Zedong) Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot etc ... did.
But that atheists can not do is use two weights and two measures?
Let me explain: if atheists can not be held responsible for what these people did a few decades ago, how can blame all Christians for what some Catholic leaders did in the Middle Ages: the Inquisition?
It's time to change argument or else surrender to common sense!
Hug to everyone.

Tom Vouray said...

Whew! Good thing we all acknowledge the Old Testament does not apply to Christians. Such as the story of creation, the great flood and ark, the ten commandments, etc. Now if we could only get those darn Bible publishers to leave it out, along with all the references in the New Testament to the Old Testament, it would be a much, much smaller book. Plus it would eliminate some of the nagging doubts that folks have about the Bible and religion; not all, but some, and that would allow more time to believe, and less time to think (because believing is so much easier than thinking).

I have to agree that Jesus and his followers did not incite violence and killings like God did in the Old Testament. But he introduced the concept of Hell to scare folks into following him. And if Hell were true, the horrors it inflicts on others who do not follow Jesus are billions of times worse than the killings that God did in the Old Testament. You'd think that if Jesus was secure in his message that he would not have to threaten those who did not believe him.

Jesus the car salesman: "You have to buy this vehicle, you'll love it forever and it will love you forever. You will enjoy being in this vehicle, although the Owners Manual and Sales Literature do not provide any descriptions of what it will be like to own this vehicle."
Customer: "But what if I don't believe you?"
Jesus the car salesman: "Then you will buy the wrong vehicle, and it will burst into flames, trapping you inside forever! NOW are you ready to buy what I am selling?"

Gilmar Daniel said...

Good evening friend, did not talk about references in the Old Testament, spoken?
FOLLOW talked about the dogmas of the Old Testament, since the Old Testament, regarding the laws, applies only to Jews, and even to today's Jews would be totally impossible Them follow everything in the Old Testament!
If explained myself badly in another review I just rectify.
Nor have talked about introducing concepts that weigh on the infidels but about inciting the faithful to violence. (why this craze comment on what people do not say?)
The proposal stands: If you believe in the Bible, Jesus urging the faithful to commit violence ceases to be Christian!
Hug.

John Brown said...

Really love seeing all the info in one place. However, I didn't see this documented:

Exodus 32

33 The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”

35 And the Lord struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.

Just curious how you would calculate a figure since none is mentioned what so ever. However I would venture it was more than 100!

Kalle Kohonen said...

One point is that that God have whole eternity ( time after innocent peoples, childrens etc.. death ) to make thinks even whit them. This life here in earth is like a one bad dream and after that ( death ) begins final reality. I believe God knows that i am bad even when i try my best but if i anyway try to make thinks like he liked me to do it will be enought.. anyway i might get injured in car crahs and live rest of my live in horrible pains but after that when i die time kind of stops beacause in eternity you dont have time and i think i rather lose wight and win the war than been a king of the day and fool for the enernity.
I believe God knows us all and he dont have same starndars for eweryone.. he knows when you do what you can do whit that givs and traumas which you have and i think its right because for him we cannot lie or predent.. i think childrens will have great time in heaven even they have diet or griefd in this world.. some peoples born handicaps to third world and they have been used many ways in their misery live but in eternity thinks could be otherway and the users could be in hell..
That God and Jesus loves you is about 100 years old trend word but if you read bible there is not much text of God or Jesus loving humans and some rare text are for them whom are following God. so its only churches of propaganda not bibles.
God does not love all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbdoVlCQP_Q

Tom Vouray said...

@Gilmar

So do you think we should ignore the entire Old Testament, or just the parts of the Old Testament where God demands violence?

SJ Cinco said...

@tom vouray; I believe from years and years of studying the Bible that God's plan is to save His children. There are children in the world that don't belong to God. Satan has flesh and bone children. We know who belongs to whom based upon their actions NOT if they go to church, not even what they profess BUT by how they live their life. You don't have to live your life the way the church says you do because the church is so corrupted and many in the church aren't God's children. If you live your life the way Jesus told us to then you belong to God. Even if you have never read the Bible or been told about it, it doesn't matter. God's children have his law written in their hearts and they act accordingly to His moral code.

Scott Sherer said...

"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conquerer. Kill them all, and you are a god." -Jean Rostand

Gilmar Daniel said...

Tom Vouray@
We should ignore any incitement to violence wherever you are!
I did not understand well what I meant friend ...
I said that I am a Christian and as such follow the teachings of Jesus ... not the doctrine of Moses, Jesus left a universal doctrine, while Moses left a estritu sensu doctrine
for Jews, this doctrine inserted in those circumstances that the Jewish people of that time lived.
I hope you now understand ... especially because I cheer for that does not have the same custom of many Brazilians who opine without reading in full and without understanding the full context of what was said.
Hug.

Gilmar Daniel said...

Kalle Kohonen@ You love those who love us and love who does not love you?
How then can "censor" God not love everyone?

Gilmar Daniel said...

Tom Vouray@:
But I want to tell you but:
I do not mean at all that one should ignore all the old-testament.
Now, said Christians should ignore the tenets done by a Jew, Moses, for Jews.
You keep the Sabbath?
Stones prostitutes?
Stop eating pork?
So it was that I spoke ... got it now?

Kalle Kohonen said...

I like that someone has take that difficult think up, why God murdered hes own creatures.
I dont really have answers for that and i am not sure how exact i should belive what bible said. ( there is errors when it is conversed to another languages and in example there is in hebrev 4 or 5 differet words for sin. In englis one.. sin and for love too.. etc.
I belive in mainly bible is real and if you read it lot you learn to find there some mainlines. One is God is same yesterday, today and tomorrow, so we have old testament for Juish and new testament for christians which are not arguing each others. role of God lovers or followers have changed and Holy Spirit has came to advice instead of hundred of commands. There is no more killing in the name of God that has changed morely and mainly just trusting God, Jesus and Holy spirit and preparing to die in martyr like Jesus lead example his followers. And turnin other cheek if someone hits you kind of thinks..
BUT God havent change as He says in hes word in bible that he is always same. So God and Jesus shall kill billions or millions peoples in book of revelations.. and its quite funny think that science agrees that oldest new testament and book of revelations argealogigal findings are near 2000 years old and many thinks has been happened what they have wroted down in bible then.. example in book of revelations number of the beast and that people shall put his mark or number in their right hand or forehead.. when it has first writtened peoples has worhipped zeus etc.. and going whit horses and todays there is nightclubs and shops ( in europe ) where you can shop faster if you have that microthink inside your hand or your forehead ( only practical places where cinetic patteries loads up because thermal changes ) how those peoples has wisdom to know that while riding horses and thinking europe and asiaa and africa is whole earth??
i think Gods dont have to answer no one what he do and why and so He says in bible too that he owns nothing to no one and that one think which make difference between peoples.. Most of peoples are humanistic and they have big broplem to face fact that God isnt so nice and just for you when you need and what ever you wish for disney lamp spirit or fairytale.. And Jesus aint no more helpless child in bethlehem which we can control and help.. humanistic side of us liked to have it that way and many churches like to feed it too put fact it that we are like ants in front of the giant and we have nothing to give them that purity and our souls and lives but our deeds or brilliant ideas are nothing they needed and they are not humans so they dont think love as we do. It is morely to be afraid of God and be humble in front of him.. better ask what you whish for me than try to tell him what he has done wrong..
But i admid other think that is paradoksal even i belive in God and hope to get in heaven some day.. why God createt satan or how satan can turn evil and take one third of angles whit him against God if God have createt all and God is pure good.. where that evil came from??
I like to discus openly thinks that seem to be wrong or false in bible or cristianity and that topic of Gods killing people is awesome thanks pringing it up in churches there is not much talk of it :)

Tom Vouray said...

@Gimar:
So you just ignore the parts of the Bible that you choose to ignore?

Tom Vouray said...

@SJ
Please provide a biblical reference to 'God's plan'. My research shows the word 'plan' does not appear in the KJV bible.

Gilmar Daniel said...

Tom Vouray@:
... Hard to talk to you ...
Ignore the parts that are not for Gentiles, as I have explained ...
Now if you do not want to understand patient ...
I will try to explain it to you again:
The New Testament was written for our time!
The Old Testament was written to the time it!
This is the new covenant proclaimed in the Old Testament:
"The days are coming," says the LORD, "when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. ​​Do not be like the covenant which fastened with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt; they did not honor my covenant, even though I divine Husband them! "asserts Yahweh. "Here, however, the Alliance to celebrate with the house of Israel passed those days," says the LORD, "will record the contents of my Torah law in their minds and write it in the depth of their feelings: their hearts. So, I will indeed be their God and they shall be my people! No one else will have the need to target your next nor his brother, preaching, 'Behold, you need to know who is Yahweh, Yahweh', because I will be known within the self of each person, from the very young to the elderly, poorest to the richest. "says the LORD. "For I will forgive them even malignancy and not allow myself to remember more of their errors and sins" (Jeremiah 31: 31-34, Holy Bible King James, updated)
So in the Old Testament speaking of a new covenant, that in which I live.
But if there is new alliance, granted by God, I am free of the old logo!
He understood now, buddy?
Now, as you explained that the Old Testament does not strip LAWS! only that! the rest matters to us so, so much that the new covenant is first explained in the Old Testament! then to ignore it entirely?
But laws should not meet because we fulfill the new covenant!
Because they still did not understand ... I give up!
Hug.

Tom Vouray said...

@Gilmar:

Don't give up! Just trying to understand your position. So you say do not follow laws of Old Testament, which apply to those of the Jewish faith. And do not follow the violence towards men that God commanded in the Old Testament. But you do follow the rest of the Old Testament.

How do you feel about this verse from the Old Testament:

"So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men." 2 Samuel 24.15.

God causes 70,000 innocent people to die to punish David for conducting a census. This is not a Jewish law. This is not God commanding violence. This is God killing 70,000 men to punish one man, while leaving their families behind to also suffer. Should we include this in our studies of the Bible as an example of how God loves people, or leave it out? It is not a law of Moses, it is not violent, as I understand you, this is a part of the Old Testament that we should not ignore.

Kalle Kohonen said...

@Tom Vouray
Yes i think some parts of bible are more practical and higer priority than others and because of that we have so many different christian churches which have differet point of views in same bible contexts. some think its ok to babtice babyes and some think and understand bible so that its only for teenagers and adults whom has knowledge to make choice by them own.. there is many thinks in bible that leave rooms for multiple choices to understand. but some thinks have said so many times in old and new testament that i think them are mainlines. example israels special position in front of God.
I know peoples can and have use bible to justice many think and of course their own intrests and i am blind too and see bible trouhg my life history and by my motives but my faith has more than just bible i try to be connected whit Holy spirit, Jesus and God and i have experienced in my life that i have have those blessings and advices, dreams and just feeling what is wrong and what is right some issues that are hard to find from bible to answer.. and i dont even try to be perfect believer because i cant but i try to grow and do the right thinks when i know what is right and try not to do wrong thinks when my eyes opened to see them in my live.. Many times i have afterwards seen that my motives has been wrong and i have done some my own missions in name of God.
I believe that we have to take responsibility of our own deeds and not run too much behind bible or churches most important think is know God, not bible or church.. ( but usually bible and church helps you to know God better or more, but church can also lead you away from God if it is sick like Jesus blames fariceas ). I mean it is not meant that we can let church or just bible tells us which kind of person God is we need to get know him personality too.. we have to have connection and let Holy spirit lead our lives that is the priority one to have an relationship and those institutions, intelliget talks and spiritual fashions and how we think bible really means are less priority. when we die or have very hard time in our lives we dont have bibles or churces or bible schools to tell us how we have to understand some thinks that bible says ( has Jesus nices or adidas or do he driks pepsi or coce ) but we still have God, Jesus and Holy spirit whit us if we dont reject them away.

Tom Vouray said...

Se o Inglês não é sua primeira língua, você pode achar mais fácil de traduzir sua mensagem usando "Google Translate".

@Gilmar this may help with your posts.

Tom Vouray said...

@Kallie:

If English is not your first language, you may find it easier to use Google Translate for your posts. Overall, your English is probably better than mine.

Question: do you believe that some people will go to Hell when they die, and how are they chosen to go to Hell instead of Heaven?

Kalle Kohonen said...

@ Tom Vouray

Sorry my english. I am finish so its not my first language and its a while i have used my english to writing.

Answer for your question do i believe that some people will go to hell is yes i belive.
I belive also that there is some kind of space between heaven and hell in finnish word tuonela I presume that is kind of waiting room for peoples whom are not quite ok whit God to wait final judge, and maybe that tuonela is kind of nirvana. But after all is done and satan has thrown to hell lamb opens book of life and whom name is not in that book shall be thrown in the lake of fire whit satan, false prophet, beast and demons. Those whom has taken the number or mark of the beast in their hand or forearm shall be too trown to the hell says Jesus in book of revolation.
Hell is place made for satan because angels like satan and demons are infinity creatures as also is human spirit so them cannot die and God doesn`t take them to to heaven to mess it up anymore.
I think God is good and righteuognes and perfectly justiful so he cant make compromises when he deals whit evil and sin he has to punish and kind of get rid of it. Elsewhere it pollutes all good and clean what he has in him and heaven

Gilmar Daniel said...

Tom Vouray@:
As for what you said about my last post: I think I have a little carnal, materialistic view of God, I also think that He is sovereign, as it is written:
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts. "
(Isaiah 55: 8,9)
And more:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, because foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(1 Corinthians 2:14)
So, friend, I do not see spiritual things through the lens of my carnal intellect.
But I explain better: God does not see things as you see ...
God does not care about the meat, too, do not think like we think, you know, save or condemn the soul after death of the body.
As for seventy thousand Israelis dead, we can not know if he chose bad or good ... it was the first case, condemned, it was the second case, he saved them.
But I do not think that I think myself worthy to challenge God!
Only obey HIM, and if I say that I regret obey, I will be lying.
I'll give you an example of how most churches today teach wrong and cause a lot of confusion, giving priority to materialism and the flesh:
Much has been discussed about the Rapture, but many say it will be pre trouble (they certainly care more about the meat and less with the soul) and some that will post tribulation (these are more concerned with the soul)
I'm sure I will post tribulation.
You want to know why think so? because I do not care about my flesh, but with my soul!
In addition, the word of God clearly tells us that true believers will go through the tribulation:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of heaven shall be shaken: And then shall appear in heaven the Son of Man sign and all the tribes of. Earth mourn and see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one to the other end of the heavens " (Matthew 24: 29-31).
There are numerous other clear examples that the rapture will post tribulation.
But those who care more about the meat, want to be taken without dying in the flesh ...
Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed Nego feared the oven?
Daniel feared being thrown into the den of lions?
Jesus Christ refused to fulfill his destiny?
Stephen fled those who stoned him?
The martyrs of the University of Oregon, knowing they would die, denied the faith?
And these all, cared more about the soul than the body, they knew, the certainty of unconditional faith that would be saved!
I am sure that if you stop trying to understand spiritual things through their carnal intellect and propose to understand the things of God, as He wants you to understand, in addition to winning the grace be saved, and this grace will make you understand quite the things of God with your carnal intellect.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest anyone should boast" (Eph 2,8-9)
See the absurdity that is seen in most churches today ...
This is because people moved by vanity and greed are fooling themselves by interpreting the word of God according to your carnal intellect!
But this is not surprising, since most churches today try to sell the word of God!
Hence all the confusion we see in most churches ...
By greed and vanity can not teach about grace and then, hardly anyone can see spiritual things with spiritual eyes.

I'm sorry to have been negligent in not fix my posts before you post ... I hope it is now easier to understand.
Hug.

Gilmar Daniel said...

Tom Vouray@:
I use google translator ... is that it does not work as well as you think ... but now I'm reviewing before in Portuguese and English before posting.
Hug.

Tom Vouray said...

@Kalle:
Do not apologize for your English, it is very easy to read.

You said:
"Hell is place made for satan because angels like satan and demons are infinity creatures as also is human spirit so them cannot die and God doesn`t take them to to heaven to mess it up anymore."

So where do the people who either do not believe in Jesus or have never heard of him, but lead good lives and do good and love others, go when they die? Not to Heaven, as Jesus has said he is the only way. What about them? That is BILLIONS of people by the way.

Tom Vouray said...

@Gilmar:

Regarding the New Testament and the new covenant: So God admits he was wrong for the things he did in the Old Testament, and establishes a new covenant in the New Testament to correct his mistake.

And if you say he did not make mistakes, then why did he establish a new covenant? If things are done correctly, there is no need to change.

Your English is also good, I was just suggesting Google Translate if you were having difficulty writing in English. And yes I agree that Google Translate is far from perfect.

Gilmar Daniel said...

Tom Vouray @:
I have no qualification to be God's advocate ... nor think IT needs that ...
But before we continue, I feel I am having difficulty in defining its position ... after all: you are atheist, Christian, or what?
Not that I have difficulty accepting his position ... free will ...
but I think it could be more efficient in my placements if he knew exactly what his ideology.
Can be?
Hug.

Tom Vouray said...

I am an atheist, but not an 'angry' atheist, as are some other people who post on this site. I have no interest in 'converting' anyone from their faith to atheism, as I believe you have a right to your opinions regarding your own beliefs. And I do not believe that I am right and that you (or anyone else) is wrong.

My questions and responses are based upon my review of the King James bible, which is very easy to do now with the ability to search the text by a computer program. I don't care if there are simple contradictions in the bible (one verse says 3,000 people, another verse says 3,001 people, etc.) but rather it is interesting to see if others have actually read the parts of the bible that are not commonly discussed in mainstream Protestant churches. It is also interesting to see if people have actually thought about the ramifications of what they believe (or were told to believe).

My interests are directed towards making others think about concepts from the bible. For example, let's look at the story of how man was cast from the garden of Eden:

"..but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." Genesis 2.17

Taken as written, you can determine two facts:
1) Man was not cast from the garden of Eden for sinning. Man was cast from the garden of Eden for the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. There is no mention or Adam or Eve sinning before they ate the fruit. For example, they are unclothed before they eat the fruit, but it is only after they gain the knowledge of good and evil that they feel ashamed for being naked. Basically, this implies that it is OK to sin as long as you don't know it. God certainly did not punish them for anything they did prior to eating the fruit. I guess we can also assume that if we could abolish the knowledge of good and evil, then we could return to Eden? (Plus I have never figured out why the knowledge of GOOD is such a bad thing).
2) God made Adam a promise that he would die the same day he ate the fruit. The serpent said he would not. Adam ate the fruit and lived another 900 years. This promise is one of God's first in the bible, and it was false. Yet some believers have no problem ignoring this, as it contradicts their faith in what is said in the bible.

I think you are an intelligent person, who has spent considerable time (more than the majority) reviewing your beliefs, and please do not be offended by my questions.

Gilmar Daniel said...

Tom vouray @:
I have no problem in accepting your questions ... quite the opposite; I believe that the dialectic is the most perfect way to evolve in any subject, but especially when it comes to existential issues.
The idea I have of God is completely different from that religions have ... or what its leaders insist on spending for "his faithful"
I do not believe, for example, that the Eden narrative are to be taken at face value, moreover, I believe that metaphors are "digestible" for the time they were made, I mean; They were existential children, people of the time ... and of course no one with common sense would try to explain complex concepts to children without using metaphors. (God is pure common sense)
I also believe that life that our "small planet" is just a classroom, so as every classroom, with advanced students and others not so much ...
So people who have adopted common sense as ideal and luminary of life have an obligation to be monitors such classrooms, explain; there is no demand from students who do not know simple arithmetic calculations do of high school ... would be counter-intuitive, it would be counter-productive, lost time, and no one with common sense wasting time.
For everything I said to you the summary is this:
I have no doubt of the existence of God, but not idealize this same God.
I seek not adapt GOD my expectations.
Deeply respect God for giving me the chance to exist, because I like to be.
And respect him for having created me, I owe to IT understanding by doing things the way that He sees fit ... arguing with someone without beginning of days?
And if I believe that He created everything that exists; contest as someone able to create such a vast universe?
I know it is capable of; "do Calculations of high school" so I urge you to pass my impressions in the same way that I thank you for making me reflect and evolve in my concepts.
Therefore we should be pleased to have such an opportunity.
Have you read something Zecharia Setchin?
If you've read should not ... but I think I read ...
I'm just now having the opportunity to read an entire work it, and I'm happy to do it, anyway I saw missing Zecharia some willingness to corroborate Biblical narratives merit full historical approval, for a given stretch of "The Tenth second planet "he comes to the conclusion that civilization came to an abrupt and inexplicable cultural growth to about 6000 years ago, but" forgets "to mention that the Jewish calendar was counting the time he wrote the book, 1977's ; 5737!
Now, it takes much of the work to reach the conclusion, and did not mention that the beginning of the Jewish calendar corresponds exactly to the period in which humanity took a "leap" inexplicable in a matter of culture and general knowledge acted so ... at least partially ...
Still, as I said, I'm happy with the reading, you know why? even considering Zecharia a genius, do not make the mistake him of bias, I have the right to be partial, because I do not claim to create a system to undergo "self-righteous
I am not accusing him of that, because he makes in his work, a tremendous effort to support, through a search for coincidences, historical narratives Bible with archaeological discoveries.
So I prefer to credit the calendar detail went unnoticed by him ... because even the greatest geniuses make mistakes ...

Gilmar Daniel said...

Tom Vouray@:
I'll show you something of my own to see if it reflects and mediaz after what you think, you see; of course nobody does anything without expecting recognition, false modesty should be a criminal ... rrsrrsrrsrs.
But the main point here is to honor GOD:
This did not come from Einstein, but straight from the Lord Jesus:
As the existence of God, higher power, universal consciousness and you name it, will be dealing with the same entity; GOD.
Place an aseptic and absolute vacuum container in a visible place, keep looking at it for 12 billion years,
if there appears anything let me know.

A lot of time I realized that God lives outside of space-time, that to me since then became a matter of course, but had not until recently to express it in the most intelligible way possible to unbelievers.
When CERN scientists reported they had found the "Higgs boson" Jesus began to inspire me and expose the result here:
If there was, but there was a big bang! someone or something must have caused it!
Science has just prove the existence of the Higgs boson, or what was considered the fundamental particle, the amazing thing is that after the discovery of this particle that they considered important, as you begin to wonder about other after this and after these most others. ..
Here comes my theory, not only mine, I found out later that it's not just "my ..."
about God living out of space time ... I will explain better about it:
It turns out that even if this proves to be (Higgs boson) the fundamental particle, "mother" of all the others, there will be an answer about who or what created it ... realize the dilemma here?
Hence the endless search for "particles ..."
Now, will always have to be a case series explanation! and obviously, the particles are effect and does not cause! so the misconception search; try to prove causation studying only the effect, you realize the absurdity?
But have begun to submit their "faith" to something greater; They think now prove the existence of parallel universes!
see here:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/large-hadron-collider-could-show-parallel-universes-exist-say-researchers-1.3006998

See scientists, most of them skeptics are starting to get something until recently, considered metaphysical; "parallel universes"
(Now if they are parallel, and always believed in the existence of these, so they are not tied to our space-time and perhaps one, or some, of these universes do not exist spacetime.)
Between now and they think God is just another step.
"I permitted Myself to be sought by Those Who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by Those Who did not seek Me I said, 'Here am I, here am I,' To a nation Which did not call. . My name on 2 "I have spread out my hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way Which is not good, Following Their own thoughts, ... (Isaiah 65: 1, KIng James Bible)
Big hug.

Tom Vouray said...

@Gilmar:


You said in a previous post when I asked you about God causing 70,000 faithful followers to die just to punish David for taking a census;

"As for seventy thousand Israelis dead, we can not know if he chose bad or good ... it was the first case, condemned, it was the second case, he saved them. But I do not think that I think myself worthy to challenge God!"

God chose to cause 70,000 people to die to punish David. There is no reference to punishing the 70,000 because they were 'bad' or 'saving' them if they were 'good' (what was he saving them from?????). Whether they were "good" or "bad" is not relevant.

You seem to want to avoid answering the question about if you think God causing 70,000 of his people to die just to punish David was a 'good' thing. Should our society follow God's example? Should we kill 70,000 people if Gilmar makes a mistake like taking a census?

Asking God why he did something is not challenging him, you are simply asking a question so you can learn. When you say you are not worthy to challenge God, it sounds to me like you are afraid that God will punish you for asking, or he is afraid that you may learn something new. Are you afraid to ask God a question, and learn and grow? Were you afraid to ask your parents questions when you were growing up? I hope not.

Tom Vouray said...

@Gilmar;

Changing the topic: In Brazil, when someone is arrested, and has a trial, does the court system make their decision of the accused's innocence or guilt (and if guilty, what the punishment is) available to the public? Do the newspapers, television and internet report the results of trials?

Gilmar Daniel said...
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Gilmar Daniel said...

Perhaps the translation was wrong left, did not talk about challenge, but contest.
I am not afraid to ask questions to God, everything I know about HIM was asking HIM.
As for the 70,000 Israelis was about it even mean: if HE, mind you; we have differing views on IT and if you do not respect my opinion as we talk? then as I was saying; meant not contest the God for IT have made the decision to kill physically, do not have the same appreciation to you for meat, I told you, but if HE decided to kill the flesh of those people and took to save them or condemn them I do not dispute.
I feel I have difficulty in accepting my ideas ... I could not be otherwise because we have totally disproportionate appreciation for meat.
I also feel that does not respect my posts as respect for their read them carefully ... I thought I had read this issue for a long time ... but okay.

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Tom Vouray said...

@Gilmar:

So your position is that our life on Earth is not as important as the next life, so therefore, regardless of God's motives for causing the deaths of the 70,000, their deaths from Earthly life is not as important as what happens in the next life? I respect your opinion.

I think Google Translate did incorrectly translate "challenge" versus "question".

Regarding my other post: does the court system report the innocence or guilt of people that have been accused of a crime when their trial is complete? Why does the court report their findings to everyone else?

[this is another thought experiment]

Tenha um bom dia!

Gilmar Daniel said...
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Gilmar Daniel said...

Tom Vouray @:
You refer to the events of corruption that has taken place here?
If so ... I think it's a little show as we say around here, "window dressing"
Now, all people aware of my country know that these corrupt are really not punished, but this show to show in the media is a palliative way to liven the mood of public opinion and in the end everything is as it is ... most Brazilians do not have a very privileged memory and soon these same people will be accused today; free, light and loose again ...
But in other high-profile cases, such as violent crimes, for example, I think that the police and justice just want to show responsibility ... something that does not really have ...
But from what I see out there is something like it?
I remember for example that I studied about Watergate and did not run anything on judicial secrecy too, to my knowledge ...
And in this case, violent, OJ Simpson also remember-turned-media show, like others, I am not mistaken, I think it was like that, but you can enlighten me better, I am awaiting.
Hug.

Dainty Victoria said...


Everyone needs to understand that God is not some mystical sky fair who hands out suckers to everyone. God is not some God who loves flowers only, loves the peace sign, gives hugs and kisses to everyone and just pleases everyone. While some of those are attributes of God and are true in some instances, God is also a God who is going to return on a great white horse with a double edges sword, a tattoo on his thigh and slay many people, Revelation tells us. God destroyed cities, justly and rightly killed hundreds of thousands if not millions for their wickedness.

God has two forms of wrath, active, and passive. The fact people steal and are not caught always is considered God's passive wrath.
There was once this man who left his entire wife and three kids in the jungle to pursue a homosexual relationship with another man. The man went to a pastor and they prayed for God's judgment on the man for being a coward. Four days later the man's heart exploded for no reason.

God does not only give out hugs and make rainbows. God created a lake of fire for wickedness. Got hates sinners. Psalm 5:5 tells us this. God hates wickedness. God absolute detests all unrighteousness. The fact that we have a God who does something about it makes me glad. Why would you want to believe in a God who doesn't punish the wicked? Where is the justice in that?

The Old Testament has people getting hair ripped out, flogged, whipped, beaten, sawed in half and more. God does what He pleases because we serve Him, He does not serve us.

Now that I have claimed this, why wouldn't you worship a God who punishes the guilty for their sins? That's not even a righteous God. There's no judgment in that. We have a God that both loves and judges and He does so perfectly. God is perfect in all that He does and this is why God kills people.

Tom Vouray said...

@Gilmar:

In America, the court system will report the results of trials for the accused. The public learns of what an individual has been accused of, and then they learn if he or she is guilty, and what their punishment is.

Would you agree that this system of telling others the result of the trial, and if guilty, the punishment assigned, is a good, common sense thing because of two things:

1) The accused may learn from their punishment so they may (or may not) do wrong again, since they have been punished; and
2) Others will learn that if they do wrong, they will be punished.

Would you agree, or do you think the court system should not make the results available to the public?

Tom Vouray said...

@Dainty:

That God that you think is always right, and only punishes the wicked, killed 70,000 innocent people just to punish David for taking a census. If God did exist, I would not worship him, as this event reveals his true attitude towards man. Spin it any way you want to, provide excuses, provide alternate interpretations, but it clearly states clearly and concisely in the bible that God killed them to punish David for taking a census.

And you wonder why everyone does not worship him? Even the worst society on Earth does not have this warped sense of "justice".

You apparently think hell is only for the wicked? According to Jesus, you can only get to heaven through him. So that means that everyone who does not accept Jesus is going to hell, such as everyone who died before Jesus was born, children who die young (including aborted children), everyone who believes a different religion, people who never hear of Jesus, etc. etc. etc. And you think all those BILLIONS of people deserve an eternity of suffering just because they don't accept Jesus? Once again, a very warped sense of "justice".

Yes, you can keep your God to yourself. Ever wonder why the number of Christians keeps dropping year after year around the world?

Tom Vouray said...

@Gilmar:

You said:
"I do not believe, for example, that the Eden narrative are to be taken at face value, moreover, I believe that metaphors are "digestible" for the time they were made........."

I agree! Except I believe that the entire bible, quaran, and book of mormon were stories created by man, for man, for the time they were made. Which is not now, so they are not applicable today.

Gilmar Daniel said...

Tom Vouray@:
I agree that yes, it should be disclosed ... who errs have to bear the consequences ...
Although the rigor of the law is flawed ... sometimes have trouble also money ... the bail system for example; favors those who can afford.
Then justice ends up being very relativist, legislation is complicated subject ...

Gilmar Daniel said...

I think so, that the Bible was written by men ... of course!
But I have witnessed many miracles in my life and the lives of others, and learned about God through the Bible, it is very easy for you to say that God does not exist ... now; You can prove that He does not exist?
See well; for me it is impossible to prove you that He does not exist.
And I do not know how you prove that He exists, but I do not want to prove that He exists, I'm sure yes; that it exists because He has proven to me that there is!
What passear Can I do is give you a testimony of those things that He has done for me and others that I witnessed.
Now, I do not pretend to prove the existence of God.
You do have to prove to me that He does not exist ... which is impossible, for He has given me irrefutable proof that IT exists.
Hug.

Tom Vouray said...

@Gilmar:

"I agree that yes, it should be disclosed ... who errs have to bear the consequences ..."

I would argue that punishment without an opportunity to learn from it is worthless. If the offender does not learn from their mistakes, and if others have not opportunity to learn from others mistakes, then the punishment is wasted.

This is another reason I do not believe in any religion.

1) By waiting to receive your punishment (or reward) AFTER you die, there is no opportunity for you to learn from your mistakes, and correct your ways. You go through life for up to 100 years, and then learn your punishment after you die. It is too late to learn from your mistakes then.
2) You can know of a another person who dies, and then you cannot say: "That person is going to heaven" or "That person is going to hell". You can guess their fate, but you are only guessing and are not sure. Therefore, an important opportunity to learn from others mistakes is lost.

I consider this method of punishment to be very flawed.

Tom Vouray said...

@Gilmar:

In an earlier post you said:

"Place an aseptic and absolute vacuum container in a visible place, keep looking at it for 12 billion years,if there appears anything let me know."

I can reword it to:
"Wait 2015 years for Jesus or God to appear as they supposedly did in the bible, and if either one appears, let me know."

Your input is based upon the scientific principle. This principle can be summarized as:
1) You develop a theory (or belief),
2) You test your theory under controlled conditions, and
3) IF the results are consistent, and can be reproduced by people other than you, then you may assume your theory (or belief) is a fact.

I can not prove there is a God, and I can not prove there is not a God. I can easily prove that neither god or jesus has appeared and interacted with anyone as described in the bible in at least the last 2015 years. Can you prove me wrong?

There is nothing wrong in believing in something. We all believe in thousands of things every day that we either assume are true, or hope are true. However, believing is much, much, easier than proving facts. Your friends at CERN did not just believe the Higgs Bosen particle exists, the proved it exists by applying the scientific principle. Another interesting aspect of the scientific principle is that people who apply it, and find that their beliefs are wrong, then (typically) admit they are wrong. I find that religious people very seldom admit that they are wrong.

I have never been to Brazil. BUT I guarantee you that if you jump off a building (this is an example, please don't jump), you will accelerate towards the ground at 9.80665 m/s2, which is the value of standard gravity. You do not have to be a Christian, or believe (or not believe) that this applies to you - - - it does regardless of your beliefs. Here is another question for you: if god existed, and created the universe, don't you think he would be more consistent than gravity?

So you have challenged me to prove that God does not exist. I challenge you to use the same scientific principles as the people at CERN to prove that he does exist.

Tom Vouray said...

@Gilmar:

"What passear Can I do is give you a testimony of those things that He has done for me and others that I witnessed."

Do not worry about your testimony or faith or beliefs. If you are happy and content with your beliefs, then you do not need approval from me or anyone else.

Bushman Kalahari said...

do u mind if hiroshima n nagasaki was nuked to stop the war by evil nation ?
If God who nuked them you will blame him again

Tom Vouray said...

@Bushman:

"do u mind if hiroshima n nagasaki was nuked to stop the war by evil nation ?
If God who nuked them you will blame him again"

Nope, don't mind it at all. Millions of lives were saved compared to those who died. BUT, compared to god, man can (and does) discuss his decisions and morality associated with his decisions, such as using atomic weapons. God does not do this, thereby robbing man of the opportunity to learn and grow.

And fundamentally, man had to bomb Japan because god does not protect those who believe in him, or punish those who deserve it. And that is because he does not exist.

Another thing to note is that not everyone who died in Japan was evil. Some Christians like to see everything in black and white, no gray. One is either a Christian or you are evil. Life is easier that way, less thinking and facing facts if you believe you are right and everyone else is wrong.

So tell me how evil the 70,000 Israelites that god caused to get sick and die because David took a census were?

Days of a Fiery Young Man said...

This list is great! It just shows how life on earth is minuscule compared to our reward in Heaven or the punishment of hell. The thing is that we all die. A death at age 1 or at age 100 is insignificant when eternity is on the line. Those hurt by the death of innocent children are the remaining family, not the child himself. Prayerfully, the family will use their moment of darkness to seek the Light (of the world).

Tom Vouray said...

I am sorry, but what reward in heaven? Please provide a biblical reference to what it will be like in heaven.

So if human life is so insignificant, it is not that big of a deal if one man dies, right? Like Jesus, right, if death is not that significant.

Ignacius Antiochus said...

Shhhhhhhhh....what is all the commotion about! Just hear this YouTube video about violence found in the Bible. C'mon give this man in black just 10 measly minutes of your precious time. Keep calm and carry on.

https://youtu.be/1A65Wfr2is0

Scott Leader said...

Thanks for this site. After many years, I am finally getting around to studying areas other than the 5 books of Moses (and only a few others). I like your writing style.
G-d saved a lot of people too. Even though I may be the descendant of some of them, I wonder if there were more saved than killed. Probably can't count the descendants, just the ones saved at that time. Thanks again.

Scott Leader said...

Oh yeah..... All is vanity.

Christian said...

only 20M on the flood? o.O and God killed EVERYTHING(not counting the ones alive today of course) that ever lived(he also gave life to everything that ever lived)

modelleader said...

So to recap:

­- before Jesus, estimated 24 million
- after Jesus, 0

Is this accurate.

Lucy said...

Funny how the most venomous posts are from 'believers'.


:)

kippercat123 said...

Here is what I believe to be a good explanation ( and more ) to this subject .....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cKxwWsksIk

cskale said...

.
FOLLOWING PASSAGES CLEARLY SHOW THAT THOUGH GOD KILLED PEOPLE, HE IN SPIRIT WORLD "SAVED" THEM SOMEHOW.

Kindly read 1 Peter 3:18-22English Standard Version (ESV)

18 For Christ also suffered[a] once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
19 in which[b] he went and proclaimed[c] to the spirits in prison,
20 because[d] they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

and

Ephesians 4:8-10King James Version (KJV)

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Tom Vouray said...

@cskale

This is fantastic news. Thanks to your biblical research, you have definitely shown that one does not have to believe or follow Jesus or God, and that God will "save" you after you die regardless.

OK everyone, thanks to cskale, we can all stop believing in all religions, and letting others do the thinking for you.

Unknown said...

The one fact that is not understood when this subject of 'gods morality' comes under attack is that the thing that's getting killed in gods eyes is merely a dead and rotting carcass. Sure he gave us these shells to undergo some sort of journey, and he wants us to take care of them.. much like we take care of our cars.,but at the end of the day.. flesh is disgusting to God...thats why he cursed it.

Tom Vouray said...

@ Unknown:
Interesting concept of a god creating something that disgusts him. Can you provide biblical references to back up this position?

Do you think we should be more like god, and adopt his sense of morality? If not, why not?

Last but certainly not least, if you are going to make excuses for god killing people based upon how all flesh is bad, then having Jesus killed was not really that big of a sacrifice, was it?

Evan wright said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Evan wright said...

So,

24,994,828 estimated killed by God
7.1 Billion people on the earth today, and people say between 14-108 Billion people who have ever lived

24,994,828/14,200,000,000 =
0.00176019915 or .17% of the conservative estimate of total population

24,994,828/108,000,000,000 =
0.00023143359 or .023% of the population of the world is it recorded biblicaly God has killed.


318.9 million total population of the US
747,408 total number of sex offenders registered by the US government

747,408/318,900,000 =
0.00234370649 or .23% of the population is a registered sex offender
granted this number is difficult to hold to, there are both silly offenses that get you on this list, and countless not recorded


157 million women in the US,
38,028,000 women who have suffered from violent domestic abuse

38,028,000/157,000,000 =
0.24221656051 or 24.2% of women have suffered from domestic abuse


Multiple offenders aside, there are more of us men alive that have committed this one horrendous crime than all the people God has killed historically in the Bible.

He must be really harsh

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/23/domestic-violence-statistics_n_5959776.html
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/fire-in-the-mind/2013/08/11/how-many-people-ever-lived/#.VsizX-ZhpaU
https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/frequency-of-sexual-assault

Tom Vouray said...

So the point is as long as your offense is below 1% of the total world population, it is OK?

And I guess you would use that as an excuse in a murder trial, "Hey I only killed one person, and that is 0.000000001% of the people that ever lived, so you can't blame me?"

Like or not (and it is "not" for Christians) you can not reconcile a loving god with one that kills people.

Changing the topic slightly - why did have a "chosen people"?

Evan wright said...

My point is a little simpler than that. If you live on an island with your family, and one of those members keeps raping and killing other members of your family, the leader needs to remove that person who keeps doing that to children, innocents, etc.

Reality is that our human condition is monstrous. People get raped, commit incest. Lie, cheat steal, take advantage of the weak and downtrodden. The Bible is honest about that.

Ending the life of someone, or even some town, that has reached the point of actively ruining innocents is a mercy to the world. And if we are reasonable, we recognize that we don't deserve, I don't deserve, any better

There are legitimate questions, but this isn't one

Evan wright said...

To be honest though, you brought up the question of the 70,000 that God killed. Which is a much more difficult question. I don't have the answers. Moreso, the 1 Chronicles 21:1 vs 2 Samuel 24:1 thing.


This is what I encountered:
David was being pretty stinkin' prideful. Which I get some (all) times. He was trying to take credit for his accomplishments, gauge his strength, and who knows, maybe tax everyone. We've already seen in battles like Jericho and Ai that victory in battle has little to do with us, yet there he is. Also, I think that if I were the head of Israel, getting prideful over my military strength would lead to testing that strength. Wanting to accomplish something or make a name for me would lead to some pretty disastrous results.
Also, as David is head of Israel as his own house, as he suggests he only have his family how punished, he responsible for the body. Sin has consequences. Pride is a "hidden" sin, but would take the recognition away from God.

(for the sake of argument, it is legitimate for God to have all the glory since He is the utmost good, knowing Him is eternal life (according to Jesus, which makes sense) thus to take the credit for the work of God would hinder others coming to know Who He is, His character and nature, and that is kinda the point of creation: to enjoy God)

I know these arguments aren't rock solid. I didn't address the devil/God part of the event. But your feedback/discussion would help find my argument's holes

Thanks

Tom Vouray said...

Really, you would have someone killed because of someone else's pride?

Here are some things that really amaze me regarding how far some believers will go to rationalize what is in the bible:

1) The people killed deserved it. Really? 70,000 followers of David are killed because of his pride? Would you use these verses exclusively in trying to convert others to Christianity?
2) How about punishing the person that committed the sin? If a foreign country were punishing people other than the person that committed a crime or sin, everyone would be up in arms to denounce them, but if god does it, it is OK?
3) How about the wives, children, relatives, friends, loved ones that the ones killed left behind? They continue to live and suffer long after their loved one is killed.
4) Well god must have had a reason, and who am I to question him? Really, this is the basis of your relationship with a god ("I'm too dumb to understand"). Ever ask yourself why there is this "don't ask, don't tell" justification when you can't figure out what god supposedly has done? If he existed, and was that smart, I would think he would not mind answering questions, and could explain it to you. I am pretty sure that I am smarter than my dog, but the reason I can't explain things to him is not because he is too dumb, but because I am not smart enough to explain it to him.
5) Why were there "chosen people" if god's love and mercy is to apply to all? By default you are setting up divisions between peoples. Of course, this makes perfect sense for believers that justifies them as superior to non-believers, or people of other religions.
6) Last but not least, the bulk of the Old Testament is trying to convince readers that there is/was a god that picked the Israelites as the chosen people and established them in the promised land, while killing hundreds of thousands who stood in the way. The end result? Modern Israel is a Jewish state, and according to Jesus, everyone who does not follow him goes to hell, so the majority of Israelites are going to hell when they die. So all the deaths and suffering recorded in the Old Testament makes perfect sense doesn't it?

Evan wright said...

Hm. Close. The purpose of the OT (or more specifically, the Law) is to show our total inability to be holy. And our need to be saved from our selves as well as everything else. As I'm sure you know, the Hebrew people were no better than any other nation. Thus the point wasn't "We're so Good, God picked us." God even said in Duet 9:

"Do not say in your heart when the LORD your God has driven them out before you, 'Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land,' but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is dispossessing them before you. It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Know, then, it is not because of your righteousness that the LORD your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stubborn people."

Sorry for the wall of text. Basically, the Hebrews are terrible stubborn people, the (Canaanites, Hittites, whoever-ites) are also terrible people. Yet God chooses rather than nuke us all, to offer the chance of redemption to the Jews by Law (however this is to further the point that the issue isn't that "the world made me do it," among other things, because God did such a clearing, providential work that even included producing food from the sky 6 days a week, yet still they chose to turn their backs on Him.) Yet still He chooses to give mercy in accordance with His purpose. Maybe suggesting that God has "mercy for everyone" is a little bit of a stretch for He pretty clearly says in a defining moment, "I will have Mercy on whom I will have Mercy, and I will have Compassion on whom I will have Compassion" (Ex 33:19)

The frustrating part for you and me is that we have little control in this. Shoot, God pretty clearly states that He chose Jacob over Esau while they were still in the womb (Rms 9:10-14), Jeremiah was chosen before he was made in his mother's womb (Jer 1:5), and Paul was the same (Gal 1:15). In fact, this will drive anyone a little batty, as we all in our natural self will, would chose to usurp God. That is, we want our actions, our choices, our will to be unhindered/sovereign, and we want to look good too. This is why the cry at the end: "WORTHY IS THE LAMB WHO WAS SLAIN" is so important. It is because Jesus "Lays down His life, no one takes it from Him" that He is worthy. And the goal of the Father is not to make good people, but to point towards the one who is worthy. Though as a Christian I tend to get legalistic and focused on being good enough which is pretty rubbish (the bible says I'm as pure as a twice used tampon), rather than focus on the slaughtered Lamb who died for the unworthy

What do you think?

Tom Vouray said...

Let's cut to the chase: do Jewish believers go to heaven? Please provide biblical support.

Ignacius Antiochus said...

@ Tom Vouray.
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/12/11/vatican-rejects-institutional-mission-work-directed-at-jews/

excerpt:
The Jewish roots of Christianity, it says, give the Christian faith its necessary “anchoring in salvation history,” showing how the life, death and resurrection of Jesus are part of the story of God’s saving work since the beginning of time, and that Christianity is not a system of religious belief that appeared out of the blue with the birth of Jesus.

Evan wright said...

Hey Tom, I'm crashing real hard tonight (playing soccer is rough... when you're out of shape)

So your answer is actually all in one place: Romans 9-11. Paul really is concerned over the church and the question of trusting God to get the job done (our transformation/saving and such) while Israel is rejecting their promised savior (which is really rejecting the character and nature of God as you and I tend to do even today). I can't work up the will to re-read and get it all right now. But John Piper is a great resource on those chapter (he took a serious sabbatical to deal with the question of sovereignty especially in this section of scripture). I'd suggest either google one of his talks on sovergnty (he's not a boring evangelical or a dry christian. The man has some life, that's worth respect).
Or check out the chunk of scripture yourself. The Message is easier as it skips theological terms and explains clearly

I think though, that a better answer to your question is simply "yes". Belief is a product of love for God (see 1 cor. 13: "love believes all"). And I am under the impression that as God is universal, the Holy Spirit of God is near to each man (Acts 17:27). Any man (or woman or child) can turn and reach out to God. Believing in Him. This is still through Jesus as the way because "the Spirit is The Lord" (2 Cor 3:17), is that plain as mud?

So the one who believes is already loving God in some small way. And that small way is the "seed" of parables. Ready to grow, if not stunted by material focus, fear, or quick, shallow growth.

I personally was not seeking Christ, but was just broken (flunked out of college, smoking pot er' day, etc.) and He showed up, kindly. However I was poorly raised religious and pursued that spirit through zen and Hindu techniques for almost a year with some success and tripping some LSD and weed along the way. But Jesus also said "everyone who listens to Truth, listens to me" (John 18:27). (Because Jesus is the historical person of the word/logos(seek greek philosophy)/truth made flesh [john 1:14]) Thus, over time, and still more and more, I find that that sweet whisper lines up 100% with the bible and Jesus' words

Please ask or help me clarify. I know you're bright. But my thoughts tend to be hermeneutic (circular-kinda) so rarely clear or understandable. And never concise! : )

Thanks again Tom Vouray

Tom Vouray said...

@Ignacius Antichus: thanks for your reply, but you did not answer the question.

@Evan Wright:
Playing soccer when you are in shape is tough. Based upon your response, you are in direct disagreement with Jesus - "John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” Who is wrong, you or Jesus?

Stratago said...

According to this Christian mathematician, your estimate for the amount of people killed in Noah's Flood is WAY too low. He calculated the number drowned was 10,299,681,562,492 (over 10 TRILLION).

https://biblescienceguy.wordpress.com/2014/06/18/4-population-growth-how-many-died-in-noahs-flood/

Apparently God is a significantly bigger bastard than you thought

Ignacius Antiochus said...


This lady writes much better than me.

Faith Crashers: Why Does God Kill People in the Old Testament?
http://www.christianpost.com/news/faith-crashers-why-does-god-kill-people-in-the-old-testament-132932/

Tom Vouray said...

@Ignacius

From the website you recommended:
"The image of God as a loving Creator is only one part of the picture." God, Howe explains, also "acts in judgment against all those who oppose Him."

So I will give you an opportunity to explain the justification for killing 70,000 because David took a census.

Evan wright said...

Ha yeah, soccer is no joke

Jesus of course :D

No seriously though, I believe our problem is more that the church's view of Christ is less than He is (a fact that must be true for finites thinking on the infinite.) I've done some serious prayer and thought on this, so I will try to keep things short and sweet

1) the name of Jesus is not 5 letters long.

Sing put, yes we must be saved by the name of Jesus. However in Hebrew culture, actually any ancient culture, the name is a symbolic representation of the whole of a person. Yeshua (Jesus) means Yahweh is Salvation. Perhaps the name of Jesus is simply reliance on Yahweh for salvation rather than my own whatever. See Jesus and the Pharisees vs the humble

2) 1 peter 3:18-20. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, othat he might bring us to God, being put to death... in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared...

What?! Jesus after 40 days on earth went to the spirits of men who died by the flood of Noah... Seriously, my friend just showed this to me today, but it goes to the point that Jesus saves those who did not know those 5 letters during the life they loved on earth.

3) john 1:14. The Logos (Word) became flesh and dwelt among us. The Logos philosophy is of greek origin, 200ish bc. It was the entity or thing that interpreted the unknowable diety and presented him to us. The Tao and (Tein? I think that's wrong, but it's similar in Confucious writings) but they are similar as the Will or Movement of Heaven that we might come under. Consider the "Kingdom (or translated perfectly, "Rule of) Heaven" that Jesus claimed was near

There are more biblical evidences. But basically, if Jesus is the incarnate diety, and life is about Him, then shouldn't we expect to see more signs of Him, His ministry, death and resurrection in history? C.S. Lewis calls Jesus Christ the perfect union of Myth and Fact, which we all hear the cry of (cp. to proverbs' "Wisdom crying out in the Street")


That's a decent sum of some of that thought. I hope you'll process it a bit before you give me your next bit to respond to :) it's a lot mate and I need some well thought out responses to refine what I'm being shown

:D I'm still not perfect in thought... Or anything else.... Woo!

Tom Vouray said...

@Evan

You have a conundrum in that you are trying through the utilization of vague (in my opinion; note that everything I say is an opinion and not necessarily a fact) biblical and non-biblical references to imply that everyone gets off scot free in the end. If this is true, would you agree that there is no need to follow any religion and everyone goes to heaven regardless?

You did state in the first line of your response that Jesus is right (which implies everything you stated after that is wrong). If you agree Jesus is right, then
> All Jews, like anyone else who does not follow Christ, do not go to heaven
> And if you don't go to heaven then you go to hell
> And last, but most important, all the fighting, death, destruction and cruelty portrayed in the Old Testament to get the Jews to Israel as the chosen people was a total waste.

Evan wright said...

:( I lost my first response. That's what I get for using a phone, eh?

So, trying again.

By Jesus you are 100% free from religion.

In fact, the early church were considered the atheists by the Roman government. They had no temple. No sacrifices. Jesus' death and resurrection are the removal of all that. Because of His death, we are seen as righteous (good) as he is. We don't have to appease some angry God! It takes faith to believe that God isn't mad at me, because I deserve wrath, people are mad at what I've done, the Father in Jesus Christ sees every wish in my heart and promises "I will heal that, so that you never need be ashamed again, forever." What faith that takes! No penance or try hard will ever make me stop enjoying porn, stop wasting my life away, stop being so damn self-righteous. Only someone perfect can make someone perfect.

The wars of the OT are, as I see it, representations of the reliance on the promise (faith) and the reliance on the self (religion). They happened because reality repeats itself on a grand scale, a middle, and personal scale. (Israel and Egypt,Babylon etc is grand; the prophets and the religious; Isaac and Ishmael; the flesh and the Spirit) but that's a grand metaphor seen in Galations 3 or 4 and Romans, I think :)

So if Jesus calls the religious out, and focuses on Real, Honest Love. And James says that "the religion God our Father accepts as pure at faultless is to take care of orphans and widows and to keep from being polluted from the world" he does not say "and meet only with fellow believers on ever Saturday and Sunday of the month and worship like this or that

So maybe your definition of following Jesus is more of the "Jesus who loves Pharisees and good church goers and tells you to be nice and dressed up on Sunday," not the historical Jesus who drank and partied with the unworthy and called the Pharisees wonderful names like murderers, hypocrites, cleaned up dead bones. You might agree with Matt 23:33 with what he says of the religious folk. "How can you (religious proud teachers) escape being condemned to hell!"

We can touch more on the "spiritual realities of the deaths of the OT or Saphira and Annais if you'd like." Just remember that Christendom is not a prereq for heaven. Loving is. (And yes, it is consistent with OT theology. At least, I believe it to be)

And personally, if That Nhat Han and Ghandi aren't in heaven, men whose lives show following Him, the God I serve is a very petty man. And I'm okay with missing the boat along with men like them, Mother Teresa, C.S. Lewis and others, along with Christ who ignored the religious rulers, for love and truth

Tom Vouray said...

@ Ethan:

You said :"Just remember that Christendom is not a prereq for heaven. Loving is. (And yes, it is consistent with OT theology. At least, I believe it to be)."

So therefore, there is no need for Jesus, as long as someone is loving? You seem capable of quoting bible verses, please provide some to back this position. Thanks!

mada124 said...

Your mistake is that you think of God on human terms. His thoughts are higher than our own, incomprehensible. How do you know the "innocents" which he killed were in fact innocent of sin? Because that is the price of sin, death. And if they are all innocent, how do you know they are condemned to the second death? (Not saved) Maybe God has granted them eternal life, like everyone has a chance at. God, creator of the very idea of life, is the only being who would be justified in whatever killing he wants. Death on earth is a temporary thing, the second death is what really matters. God is not wiping them from the universe, only earth. So how can you, a mere human, question the will of God? Do you know how God went about creating the universe? Do you know the depths of M-Theory, and the extent of the laws of physics he created? How do you manipulate the energy that makes up everything there is? Can you create this energy? Can you create life from merely your voice? God's physical appearance inadvertently kill you because sin cant exist in his presence. This post is misleading of Gods undying love. You only show Gods bad side. IF God really hates humans, why would he send his only Son to die for them? Turn from your ways, or you will deeply regret it. Despite what you may think, all will soon learn what the truth is. And all will see that God is just, and has our best interests in mind. Death means nothing to God.

Tom Vouray said...

@mada124:

“His thoughts are higher than our own, incomprehensible.”
Nonsense. If there were an all-powerful god, he would be easily capable of explaining his actions to us.

“ How do you know the "innocents" which he killed were in fact innocent of sin? Because that is the price of sin, death.”
So, Jesus got it all wrong, all sinners should be killed, not redeemed? Should we follow god’s example and kill sinners, regardless of their sin?

“How do you know……. how do you know………. Do you know……… Do you know………..”
I’ll turn it back to you, how do YOU know? The answer is in the bible. If the people killed deserved it, then it would have been recorded in the bible (which it was not). Are you questioning the completeness and accuracy of the bible?

“Maybe God has granted them eternal life, like everyone has a chance at.”
So if Hitler had a last minute conversion to christianity, then he is heaven, while all the Jews are in hell since they don’t accept christ? That seems reasonable.

”So how can you, a mere human, question the will of God?”
Why not? Please provide a biblical reference that says that you cannot question god.

“God's physical appearance inadvertently kill you because sin can’t exist in his presence.”
Please provide a biblical reference to support this assumption/guess.

“This post is misleading of Gods undying love.”
Have you actually READ the bible and counted how many times that god or jesus says directly “god loves you”? You might be sorely disappointed if you take the time to research it.

“You only show Gods bad side.”
So god does have a bad side. That’s something to think about.

“IF God really hates humans, why would he send his only Son to die for them? / Death means nothing to God.”
You just contradicted yourself.

“Turn from your ways, or you will deeply regret it.”
Ah yes, the ever faithful fallback on hell. So we should not follow jesus and christianity because it is good thing, but only because we want to avoid a bad thing. That god created, by the way. You make god out to be a local gangster – “pay my extortion fee each month or bad things will happen to you and your family”. Should I follow god’s example as a parent, and eternally punish my children if they do not unconditionally shower me with love?

mada124 said...

"“His thoughts are higher than our own, incomprehensible.”

Nonsense. If there were an all-powerful god, he would be easily capable of explaining his actions to us."

Perhaps in His equivalent of layman terms. Its like trying to explain a hypercube you can only give vague hints. Also keep in mind when this book was written. Science was nowhere near were it is now.

“ How do you know the "innocents" which he killed were in fact innocent of sin? Because that is the price of sin, death.”

So, Jesus got it all wrong, all sinners should be killed, not redeemed? Should we follow god’s example and kill sinners, regardless of their sin?

Jesus is not relevant to the Old Testament in terms of redemption. He was born yet. The reason God killed sinner is because he said the wages of sin are death. I personally think these examples are to show us the severity of sin. God take no pleasure in killing people. Who know the reason why the wages of sin are death. If we are saved, we can ask him.

"“How do you know……. how do you know………. Do you know……… Do you know………..”

I’ll turn it back to you, how do YOU know? The answer is in the bible...

Read the whole chapters where God kills someone if you want more information on why. Perhaps he made a promise to someone to wipe out his enemies. God keeps his word. Faith is what we must go on. We must trust that he is doing what is best, even if it make literally no sense to us. The Book of Job is a good example.

“Maybe God has granted them eternal life, like everyone has a chance at.”

So if Hitler had a last minute conversion to christianity, then he is heaven, while all the Jews are in hell since they don’t accept christ? That seems reasonable.

Look up who the 144,000 are. Jew can still be saved, they have a covenant with God. It just incredibly hard. Jews will live through the Tribulation after Christ takes away the church. Those who dont accept the mark will be saved. Skipping alot of details, as that is a whole different discussion
Revelation 7
3 “Wait! Don’t harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have placed the seal of God on the foreheads of his servants.”
4 And I heard how many were marked with the seal of God—144,000 were sealed from all the tribes of Israel:"
”So how can you, a mere human, question the will of God?”

Why not? Please provide a biblical reference that says that you cannot question god.

I can't, questioning God is not wrong, what I meant by this is questioning specifically, Gods intent. We don't really know how his thoughts would work. He doesnt live with the looming threat of death. Imagine trying to tell a computer program what exists outside of the binary it is so accustomed to. Meager example, but that's the best I could think of.
“God's physical appearance inadvertently kill you because sin can’t exist in his presence.”

Please provide a biblical reference to support this assumption/guess.
Exodus 33
19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
“This post is misleading of Gods undying love.”

Have you actually READ the bible and counted how many times that god or jesus says directly …..
The fact that we are alive is my evidence for this. God wanted to wipe us out, but Noah convinced him otherwise. God saying something once is more than enough.
“You only show Gods bad side.”

mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray

So god does have a bad side. That’s something to think about.

You only get to see it if you break the laws. Not even then, since Jesus can redeem us all.

“IF God really hates humans, why would he send his only Son to die for them? / Death means nothing to God.”
You just contradicted yourself.
Jesus's death and the death of any other human are not equal. Jesus was without sin. With his death, I believe a perfect mold for a fully righteous human was created. Like a blueprint. God goal is to give us all new form based on this mold. But we must choose Him, and have faith in Him

"“Turn from your ways, or you will deeply regret it.”
Ah yes, the ever faithful fallback on hell..
I actually dont believe in a traditional Hell. It is absolute. No torment save the sting of death. Everyone will have an opportunity to we were they were wrong, and why. Then they will die, understanding why. Its bleak, but his Grace period is now, don't wait. That's what I mean by regret.
The overall message of the Bible is a good one, people can and will skew anything to achieve whatever they want. This original post is an example. It is not a wholesome view of a being who is multidimensional. That is why it is misleading.


Tom Vouray said...

@mada124:

Your responses are refreshingly honest for a believer, thanks for taking the time to respond.

I too am a believer, just like you. Just like you, I pick and chose what parts of the bible I believe in, and then just ignore the rest. I believe nothing in the bible regarding the existence of god, jesus or the need to constantly worship them. I do believe in some of the basic moral recommendations regarding how to get along with others, but not all of them. You see, believing, is much, much easier than thinking, and that is why more people believe things told to them by others, rather than think through things for themselves. Apparently, when you encounter an "issue" with something in the bible, you stop and say "perhaps there was a reason....." or "God is so much smarter than me, I can not comprehend it". But you have the ability to question and pursue the understanding if you communicate with god (if he exists). But you don't. You stop asking questions, and remain content in not seeking the answers. And that is the easy thing to do.

I am extremely grateful that doctors, scientists, engineers, and others in the past did not adopt your philosophy of "I have encountered something I do not understand, but I have decided to not pursue it further." Think about that the next time you need medicine, a medical procedure, or reap the benefits of modern living, such as the computer and internet that you are using right now.

But to each his own, I have no desire or interest in swaying you from your beliefs; if you are happy, then that is great.

Here are a couple more things to think about:
1) If god only kills people that sinned, explain the logic in him killing 70,000 of the nation of Israel to punish David for taking a census. And before you say "perhaps/maybe/it is possible that all 70,000 were bad boys", the bible does make it explicitly clear that they died to punish David, not because of their own actions.
2) And an Easter question for you: where did jesus go for the 3 days after his death?

Have a great Easter 2016!

Tom Vouray said...

Sorry, one more Easter question: why was jesus afraid to die?

mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray

At first I was conflicted with God seemingly meaningless killing. I still wonder, your example of David is a good one I've yet to find an answer for. They people may have very well been innocent, but also realize, God know the outcome of everything before it happens. Their life on earth may have ended, but God has a master plan for all of time. Questioning is imperative to having true belief. For topic such as this, i belive there are no answers to find on the Earth or in men, the only true answers for these questions can only be given by prayer and study. Although it may seem like i do not question, because of my certainty, I do. My philosophy is to not avoid the unexplainable, as you suggested. But for mean time, while I attempt to learn why, I have faith. I strongly believe that science and spirituality are strongly intertwined. A good example of this is the Big Bang. Many religious people denounce this, but I believe we are just observing the means by which God created.

Also, people tend to believe that Jesus was somewhat like a super human. In reality he was just like you and me. We can even perform the miracles he did, through the power of God (assuming one has the faith that God is indeed real). He was a human with unwavering faith in God. He had to belive fully that he was the Messiah. I'd assume He was scared because he did want to go through the torment he knew awaited him. The Romans we're known for thier methods of torture. Crucifixion is a long, slow, painful death. Jesus had to have faith that God was telling him the truth and that this pain was worth it in the end. I'm sure he even questioned why the all powerful God couldnt find an easier way for him to save humanity, but even so he said your will be done.

Luke 22:42

Tom Vouray said...

@mada124:

Your opinion please. What if god did not love you? Not dislike you, not hate you, just does not love you. Perhaps he is your friend. What do you think your relationship with god would be like (this is a thought experiment for you)?

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Unknown said...

All the non believers need to understand the difference between the flesh and the soul. Your flesh is weak and will not survive.

Jesus Christ offers eternal life for those that follow Him. Repent and believe. Break free of your evil ways in the flesh here on earth and prepare for eternal life in Heaven with the Great I am. He has set the world in motion perfectly.

Tom Vouray said...

@Unknown:

Please provide a reference from the bible that non-belief is "evil".

kiranthomas1 said...

Just like we have certain laws that we must follow or there is punishment God has certain laws he set for us as the creator of the universe and if we do not follow those laws then the punishment is death.

Since God is loving he is willing to save us from breaking his law by giving us his Son who acts like a attorney on our behalf and saves us from our crimes by saving us from death and setting us free.

If u break the law punishment is death.
God loves us so much that he has given us a way out.
Trust is Jesus and be saved from breaking the law of God.

God only kills if we sin. The only way out is Jesus.

Tom Vouray said...

@kiranthomas1:

So, explain the 70,000 that God cause to die because a census was taken by David. What was their sin that was worthy of death?

Which sins are worthy of death? Are all sins equal?

And since you note that the only way is through jesus, you are condemning people who never heard of him to hell, such infants that die during abortions. That sound loving and fair, doesn't it?

kiranthomas1 said...

@Tom

Again u fail to understand that the laws were broken and anytime a law is broken there is punishment. If God does not punish when laws are broken then He is not just.

Tempted by Satan David broke the law by taking a census and the result was Gods punishment.

Gods standard is perfection. Any sin you commit is breaking Gods law. The wages of all sin is death.

God created laws and if we break them then we will be punished. If not he would not be a just God. 

God is loving and He loves everything He created so He provided the same way to be saved from death for all of creation. 

If He does not have one and only one way for everyone then He would not be just would He. 

As far as infant deaths go God wants everyone to have a chance to accept his son so He works in ways known only to Him. We don't know if they had a chance to accept the Lord or not only He knows.

All I know is I haven't met a single person who has not heard of Jesus. Atheists, criminals,terrorists,infants have all heard of Jesus. The most known name on Earth and God has made it that way the truth is right in front of you. You either accept it or not, the choice is yours!

kiranthomas1 said...

Also @Tom regarding abortions and and children that died in the womb they did not get a chance to commit any sins of break the law. God is just and He will do what is right and just for lives with no Sin.

Tom Vouray said...

@kiranthomas1:

"The only way out is Jesus."

"We don't know if they had a chance to accept the Lord or not only He knows.
Also @Tom regarding abortions and children that died in the womb they did not get a chance to commit any sins of break the law. God is just and He will do what is right and just for lives with no Sin."

You are contradicting your self. You are guessing and hoping that aborted children do not go to hell, but you can not provide a biblical reference to support it. But if that makes you feel better to avoid the issue, so be it.

"All I know is I haven't met a single person who has not heard of Jesus."
You are not well travelled. You are assuming that every person out of billions on the planet has 1) heard of Jesus, and 2) either accepted or rejected him. That is not true, and you can not provide evidence to support it. Therefore, millions/billions of people go to hell because they have not heard of Jesus? And yes, one other group of billions of people - all of the people that lived and died before Jesus are now in hell because he was not even around.

Yup, fair and just.

Last but not least, you skipped over the point of the deaths of the 70,000 - they did not commit the sin, David did. So your definition of justice is the deaths of 70,000 people who did not commit sin, while David basically gets off free? Would you use this story from the bible to convince others to join your religion?

kiranthomas1 said...

I have seen you throughout this site all you talk about this 70,000. Well we can keep going until you know why they were killed. It is not Gods fault it was Davids.

As to why God was angry at David, in those times, a man only had the right to count or number what belonged to him. Israel did not belong to David; Israel belonged to God. In Exodus 30:12 God told Moses, “When you take a census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay the LORD a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them.” It was up to God to command a census, and if David counted he should only do it at God's command, receiving a ransom to "atone" for the counting. This is why God was angry again with Israel and is also why David was “conscience-stricken” after he counted Israel. David knew it was wrong and begged God to take away the guilt of his sin (2 Samuel 24:10).

Sometimes when you sin other people are also affected. All our actions have consequences. God law was broken and he had to keep his word and the deaths of all 70000 are on David's hands not God's.

Also bible says that God wants everyone to have a chance to accept Jesus Christ. That is why He has not come back yet He wants as many people as possible to know his name and pretty soon everyone will cause God said so.

If you use the Bible to prove that God was a killer then you are only focusing on the part of God that had to pass his justice for breaking the laws that He had created.

Also it is interesting how Steve Wells omits some parts from this verse on the main page to twist the meaning of the bible verse.

This is his version:
I kill ... I wound ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and mine sword shall devour flesh. -- Deuteronomy 32:39-42

The bible actually says:
"I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy."

God is supreme over everything and everyone. He gives life and takes life. He is over all. He is the only one that can judge us according to the bible verses.

Humans always try to disprove God so they can live life their own way and not follow any of God's laws. The punishment for breaking his laws is death. Only Jesus can save you from this.

Tom Vouray said...

@kiranthomas1:

So you are OK with punishing a person by making others suffer and die? If I get a parking ticket, your family can suffer a horrible death in front of your eyes, and that is OK?

"Only Jesus can save you from this."

Once again, the majority of deaths listed happened before Jesus. So by your very own words, everyone who died before Jesus is in hell.

One more thing for you to think about. Read the bible, read Genesis. God supposedly drown everyone in the world because they were wicked/evil. However, according to the bible, god never told the world what constituted sin, nor did he provide any written instructions as to what constituted sin. So therefore, your god supposedly killed everyone but the 8 on the ark for committing sins, without bothering to tell anyone what was a sin. That sounds fair and just, right? Much like getting a speeding ticket with no speed limit signs up. And they, including Noah, are in hell, because they died before Jesus, so there is no possible way they were saved.

Fair and just.

james bond said...

A most interesting collection of stats Steve. Well done. I wish I could commit the whole to memory. But I will be citing your information and website in my discussions. I have posted your link on my facebook page. It never ceases to amaze me that people in this information age of great technological and scientific advancement cling to ancient myth and equate its stories with reality. There seems to be some sidestepping of the brain going on. That people such as yourself should even have to point out the idiocy of the stories is itself lamentable, but you are doing great work. Of course the devout will for the most part ignore or deny what you present, as that is the only way their ignorance can survive. Not only survive, but thrive, and underpin billion dollar faith industries and preachers. Nevertheless, some of it must surely call the doubters and the unsure over to the world of reason, and it's those that will benefit from studies and literature like yours. Keep writing.

pappu fusss said...

i need to kill the god somehow.
https://fkgod.blogspot.in/

Remy Zandbergen said...

Uhm, when i create a Lego puppet am i than allowed to destroy it? I dont know but i guess that if i kill a thing that i create to my own image, that i would be devastated if i had to kill him. That given, i dont know the spiritual realm, im not God, i dont know how reality is without sin and i dont know the rules of eternity. For that matter i wont give my opinion whether its bad or not if a creator has killed many of his makings. He is way bigger than me, more mightier and the one who creatief exsistence in the first place. It would be ultimately dumb if i questioned him. Damn

Tom Vouray said...

@Remy:

Why would be dumb to question god?

Peter said...

Unbelievable brains......
People! Please show me where in the evolution proses there is no death???? Where in the evolution proses there is no pain?????? How many billions of years of cruelty and the strongest eats the weakest has to pass in order to be what we are today??????? Christians at least love atheists and all they want for and from atheists is to stop lying in their text books. I mean, what is a moral and an immoral thing for an atheist??????? Even today they have no standards and evolution dictates if you are stronger and more powerful you eat/use the weakest (what we see today often from those that does not believe in God) FOR THE SAKE OF EVOLVING TO A HIGHER STATE!!!!!?????? Is this something better then a God that wants everybody to give him the rightly owned thanks and honor for giving us life for giving us a chance to enjoy our existence also by loving one another and not killing, not stealing, not sleeping with somebody else's wife because that hurts your neighbor and God loves your neighbor no more than you so there must be a fare moral standard for everybody??????? Why nobody thinks of that??????? Atheists say "yes we are moral and have a moral thing" called what?? Since when evolution is moral?????? People are moral (who are moral) because at least their grandparents or parents or some of friends believed or believe in a moral God and try's to follow the moral footsteps God gave to everybody!!!!!!! The word "right - right and wrong" the understanding of "fair" would of never existed in our life's or its definition would of change with the strongest neighbor if there is no a higher being that watches and tells us "thats not good; thats not right; thats not fair" "thats the final line"!!!!! Do you atheist know how many suffered in the days of noah was???? Pedophilia; cannibalism; wars; sex orgies with animals; the strongest killing the weakest; stealing; al kind of perversion taking place there, i mean what kind of loving God will allow that to take place before his eyes when people in those times lived hundreds of years????? Todays world is not that far from the one in Noah's times because even christians are giving up the moral understandings of God!!!!!! There is no love with ought law!!
There is a God that deserves the rightly owned honor from His creation and there is our neighbor that deserves the same right that i have so without this there is no love and peace. If everybody would of seek God to give Him the rightly owned honor and at the same time love their neighbor because they are just like them do you think God will bring a flood over those people??? There is no such a record in the Bible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So God is not cruel!!!!!!!!!! God is love!!!!!!!! That is why He gave such a moral understanding for everybody about Him and for the good of everybody so that the strongest may be friends with the weakest and be happy as neighbors both giving thanks to God for the great gift of life!!!

Tom Vouray said...

@Peter:
Do you believe the bible provides all the moral guidance that everyone needs?

Ragu waran said...

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Job Typing

alex Adam said...

you will not find this stuff in Quran.
also these have no authenticity.
bible(or torahs) these statement made by who?????? no now knows.
you are just copying not analyzing.

AerialGuardian said...

Praise the LORD! Thank you LORD for getting rid of all the evil bloodline of the Evil Fallen Angels. And soon, rid of all the evil that is left, the Fallen themselves.

Tom Vouray said...

@ArielGarden:
Are you free from sin?

james bond said...

Sin is a nonsense concept invented by the religious. Stop speaking gibberish please.

Tom Vouray said...

@james bond
Actually if you think about it, sin is not relevant at all to being "saved", according to the bible.

1) If you are sinless, but do not follow jesus, you go to hell.
2) If you are sinless and do follow jesus, you go to heaven
3) If you are sinful and follow jesus, you are forgiven, and go to heaven.

So the big question no one wants to answer is, if sin is so bad when you don't follow jesus, how come it is not worse when you claim to follow jesus and still sin? There is nothing in the bible that discusses sin once you claim to follow jesus. Nor is there any clarification of the relative "level" of sin. Can you claim to follow jesus, kill someone (or more), and still go to heaven? According to the bible you can.

Want to really confuse a Christian? Point out to them that according to the bible, if Hitler confessed his allegiance to jesus before he died, then regardless of the millions he was directly and indirectly responsible for killing before and during WWII, he is now in heaven. And Jews are not, because they do not worship jesus.

That sounds fair, doesn't it?

james bond said...

Thank you Tom. Yes I knew the whole forgiveness paradox that Christians cannot weasel their way out of or somehow make sensible or just. But I long ago stopped expecting rationality, morality, consistency, honesty or even basic straight talking from devout believers.

james bond said...

This is a reply to Peter

Peter, you really need an editor to vet your writing before you post anything. Spelling errors make your comments difficult to follow. Excessive and unnecessary punctuation makes them irritating. Upper case sentences are just a pain in the arse. You should also study basic rules of grammar.

Now I realise that not everyone is a skilled writer and perhaps I need to be a little sympathetic to those who perhaps did not get a great education in language. So I will look at some of the points that you try to make and just focus on those.

I don't think you demonstrate any understanding at all of evolution or of atheism. Please do not conflate the "survival of the fittest" rule with evolution. That phrase does not even mean the strongest animal will survive by killing the weakest. It means the animal most fitted to survive or to exist in the environment it lives in will be the most likely to survive and pass on its genes. The one least fit to survive, as in the case of a bird with a beak not quite long enough to reach the all the insects it feeds upon, will be less likely to survive.

And your arguments about morality are really very irrational and quite misguided. Morality actually has very little to do with religion, which did not invent moral rules. Morality pre-existed Christianity. Atheists that I know are very moral people who respect the rights of others because that is in the best interests of everyone. Unlike the god of the bible, we do not approve of slavery, rape, genocide, infanticide, murder, stoning, or human sacrifice. So you see, we are very very much more moral than the bible. Most of the hideous acts of terrorism we see in the world today are perpetrated by devoutly religious people. So do not try to tell me religion is the basis of moral rules.

I doubt if I will get a reasonable or coherent response from you Peter. But you can try. I will listen.

mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray If you think that will confuse a Christian, you are sadly mistaken. You lack true knowledge of the Bible, so pleaae refrain from speaking like you do.

http://biblehub.com/niv/romans/6.htm

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

If you claim to be in Christ and sin, and have no plan or effort to attempt and stop, you will in fact be destroyed eternally. God is not fooled by word, he looks directly into the depths of the mind. People love to use that Hitler example, and thats simply goes to show Gods love. It seems to me like your just unhappy about how you have to be saved. Which is irrelevant. Just be glad there is a way at all. Dont get hung up on why God killed this guy, or that city. God created humanity, so he has free reign to do as He seems just, you dont like it, get mad about it. So did David when Uzziah was killed. But dont harden your heart and fail to see His love because your too mad. He sent his Son, aka Himself to die for a literally inferior species. Thats how much he loves us. He could have started over, destroyed all life, but that would only make satan right. Thus he has allowed this to play out. For man to reap what he sows. And for us to see the consequences of sin. Dont lie to yourself any longer. Look at the state of this world, can you not see the end is fast approaching? The most important thing the old testament is there for is to ahow us how God deals with sin, and how serious he is about it. Dont attempt to personify the Creator into a lowly humanized man with powers, He is in fact all knowing, and omnipotent, so what can you tell him he doesnt already know? He made you. Whether you belive it or not, reality remains. So what is it gonna be Tom, Your obviously searching for something, why stay on this forum? Gods calling for you to come to Him, cause he loves you more than you even realize it. How long will you wait? Seek God out, amd ask him your questions. Not man. Thats what Job did, nothinf wrong with questions, or anger even, but ask respectfully and genuinely. I swear by my own life, if you do this,MY GOD, the God of Dorian Xavier Louis Randall, is faithful to answer. Also, yes Jews can and will be saved. God has a plan for each and everyone of us, to reveal salvation to everyone. During the tribulation period many will come to a saving knowledge of Christ. Man jews will learn Jesus is infact the Messiah they are looking for. Worry about your own salvation, then work to tell other the Good News.

james bond said...

Mada, your expression is very poor so I find it difficult at times to understand you.

In fact, I don't even believe you're real. The God of Dorian Xavier Louis Randall? You're a fraud.

Tom Vouray said...

@mada124
A very good post, here are some rebuttals for you to ponder:

“You lack true knowledge of the Bible, so pleaae refrain from speaking like you do.”
Please define “true knowledge”, and explain how you are more qualified than anyone else regarding the bible. I simply read what is written, and do not “interpret” it to match my desired outcome, as some other do.

“If you claim to be in Christ and sin, and have no plan or effort to attempt and stop, you will in fact be destroyed eternally.”
So, are you completely without sin, or are you going to be destroyed eternally? Please provide a biblical reference to support your claim.

“Thats how much he loves us.”
Please provide biblical quotes from jesus where he states that he loves mankind.

“He could have started over, destroyed all life, but that would only make satan right.”
He more or less did that with the flood, right?

“Look at the state of this world, can you not see the end is fast approaching?”
Nope. It is funny that many christians, like you, want to use fear to get others to join them, as opposed to being able to convince others to join them because they will learn to get along and treat their fellow mankind in a loving way.

“Your obviously searching for something, why stay on this forum?”
You are the one that came to this forum, what are you searching for? I enjoy interacting with others, such as yourself, with different opinions. Unlike you, I do not claim to have “true knowledge” of the bible, or try to convince others that I am absolutely right and everyone else who does not agree with me is absolutely wrong.

“Also, yes Jews can and will be saved.”
According to the bible, anyone can be saved. But simply stating that Jews can saved and will be saved are two different things. Please provide a biblical reference that states that all Jews *will* be saved.

“And for us to see the consequences of sin.”
I will wrap up with a simple question for you: what is the purpose of punishment?

james bond said...

Yes, Tom, I concur with your comments, but I think you give too much time to a nonsense rant from Mada.

Tom Vouray said...

@james bond

Well, this is an open forum, and it would be disrespectful to not allow Mada or anyone else to express an opinion. I am not trying to 'convert' Mada or anyone else - live your own life and believe in what you want to believe in and be happy. I do draw the line when people attempt to convince others that their beliefs or opinions are facts; hence my multiple requests for biblical quotes and references to back up the statements made by Mada.

mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray

I would like to take my statment about the Bible back. Your right, it is a document that can be read by anyone, my understanding of it, however, is different than someone who justs looks at it purely as a historical document. This is why.

1 Corinthians 2

13When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths.f 14But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. 15Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others.


The flood killed many people, most of them. but not all

Now, concerning Gods love for man.

Romans 8

38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[b] neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3

16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

1John 4:9-11

In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.


Now, about salvation. I am not without sin, I dont claim to be, and anyone who does is a liar. What saves you is faith in Jesus, with this faith, comes the Spirit. If the Spirit is in you, you will not wamt to sin. But sometimes you will, you just turn right back around and repent. Its not meant to be "fair" Because if it where fair, all of us would die forever. Gods giving a free pass to those who take it. If you dont, who is to blame? Me if i dont tell you about yhe free pass. But if i do, your salvation is up to you now.

Romans 3

21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,i through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

There is no bible verse saying all jews will be saved, because not all will. Not all "christians" will be saved either. Gods judgement is by character and faith, not deeds and words. Nothing we do can save us, only Jesus saves.

Mathew 7

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray


My hope in commenting here is to try and convince people that God truly does love us, and that He is very real. I cannot standby with what I feel like I know. I will never force my opinion on someone, but my goal is to at least plant a seed of faith, so that when certain things happen in the future, perhaps they will remember this argument. I dont want to come off as using fear to try and get people to see light. My intention is to create a sense of urgency. This is why. As a Christian, I do believe Christ will reveal himself to man, and i actively look at prophecies such as Ezekiel 38, and try to get a sense of whats going on with the timing, although no man can ever know the time. We are given hints though, just as you can tell winter is coming. I have this laid on my heart, I cannot keep quiet, especially now.Ive had vivid dreams about thibgs concerning the end of time. US election coming up, radical islamic attacks are happening every week it seems, mutiple times a week. The weather around the earth is almost apocalyptic. Look at the flooding in China, even here in the US. Maybe im totally wrong about it being soon, bit whether it be 5 years or 50, you can be sure, it will come. But, thats what Christians are called to do, try to spread the gospel. Your asking good questions, please keep doing it.

Tom Vouray said...

@mada

Thanks for your responses. Let's focus on two unresolved items:

1) Can you provide a biblical reference where jesus says "I love mankind/the world" or something like it. And to be clear, I am not looking for a quote from god, or a quote by a person who said jesus loves everyone. My point is that jesus never did say that he loves mankind and/or the world (or at least it was not recorded in the bible).

2) In your opinion, what is the purpose of punishment?

Tom Vouray said...

@ mada

"Gods giving a free pass to those who take it. If you dont, who is to blame? Me if i dont tell you about yhe free pass. But if i do, your salvation is up to you now."

This, in my opinion, is based upon an extremely narrow view of the world. This would be true (if what you believe is true) if everyone, ever where, at all times, knew about jesus and your beliefs. But, according to statistics, only 32% of the world is listed as "Christian". That means that up to 68% of the world either does not know or does not believe (don't assume everyone every where in the world knows of your beliefs) in jesus. By default, they go to hell.

Now, if god existed, I would believe that he is not loving, fair and just to send people to hell who never heard of jesus, and not through their own fault. However, many Christians are OK with this.

Interesting.

mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray

John 3:16 is a quote from Jesus. Do you think Jesus would come to earth and endure torture and a brutal death on the cross to save humanity if he did not love them? As the saying goes, actions speak louder than words. Also, it is accepted by Christians that all of the Bible is in fact the word of God. Written down by inspired men.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Here is a verse supporting the claim that Jesus is in fact God as a man.

John 10

25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”


mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray

Punishment is an undesired side effect of sin. The only punishment there is, is death. All claims of eternal torment are not biblical. There are verse that mention the smoke of torment rising forever and ever, but this is in reference to Satan and his fallen angels. They cannot die, because they were created to be immortal, so they are banished to the "lake of fire". When the end time comes, those who are not saved will have it explained to them, then they will be eternally destroyed, it will be as if they never existed in the first place. Also, humans are not to punish anyone. The Catholic church has a history of doing just that.

Romans 12:17-19
Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”


The lord will repay the wicked with what they have earned, Death was not created by God, but came as a consequence of the Fall of man. He knew of death, so he warned us not to disobey Him, or we will surely die. The reason we die if we sin, is because sin cannot exist in Gods presence, as a pure and holy, omnipotent being. He is theoretically the embodiment of Good, so Evil cannot survive in it presence, and God being the source of everything, we are always somewhat in his presence. This is now speculation. I assume God didn't create death because it is never mention in the bible as something He created, rather something he warned us about. If a child touches a hot stove, after being told to avoid it, did the parent burn the child?

Ezekiel 18:32
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

Maybe your question is why do we have to destroy those judged by God as wicked. This is because there is no other alternative. Where would they go? God is everything, and they have rejected Him, the most humane way is to annihilate them. They wont have any idea after the fact. Again, it will be as if they never even existed. I hope this helps.

Revelation 20

The Judgment of Satan

7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


The Judgment of the Dead

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray

I didn't ever say that everyone on earth knows about Jesus. But God judges the heart, and he know what a person would do. Situations like this are not explained in the bible, so we have to use what we know about God to explain them. I believe, since God looks at the heart, he knows what a person is like and what the would do. He will save good people who live in ignorance of Jesus, they have not rejected Him, so it is safe to assume this much. I also think certain event in the future will change a lot of hearts and many will come to Jesus, who previously did not know him or were on the fence. Even atheists will come to Jesus when these events start to take place. In Johns vision, recorded in Revelation, He sees a great multitude, billions of people, from every race and nation and creed, all saved. Many will be lost, but many will be saved. Everyone will, at some point in their life, have a chance. And if they don't, God is just, and will not send a righteous person into the lake of fire.

mada124 said...

@james bond

Im sorry you couldn't understand what I wrote, some typos happen when your type on your phone. I don't think it was too hard to read though. Your attempting to antagonize me, very petty of you. As for calling me a fraud, you have no idea who I am, I don't appreciate your response. I was talking to Tom about my beliefs, whether or not you think I'm real has no relevance, whatsoever. I'm not a robot, I checked the box.

james bond said...

Not attempting to antagonise you and sorry if you think that. I just find it hard to believe you actually hold views such as those expressed. And a robot is more than capable of ticking a box. But you say you are real. So I will work on the belief that you are. What I want you to understand is that quoting from the bible establishes absolutely nothing more than that is what the bible, or the bible you happen to use, says. It is not an authority on anything except itself, which means it can verify nothing in reality and cannot be used as evidence of any reality or truth whatsoever. Are you aware that it is a book cobbled together by an enormous number of people over time, who took fables from a variety of ancient sources? That the virgin birth story and the son of god story and the resurrection and the parting of the seas and the creation etc etc are all just regurgitated from earlier myths? That there is no evidence that any of the supposed or alleged authors of the gospels actually wrote those gospels? That the bible you are reading has been translated through several ancient and modern languages, and amended countless times, with no actual checks at each new version, of the correctness or accuracy of the translated texts? That there is no primary source evidence at all for the actual existence of jesus. None. Zilch. And please don't come back at me with Josephus, whose allusions to jesus are later additions, proven to be faked. The historicity of jesus is extremely doubtful on every level. But you choose to believe it all. I am wondering why you would even want to believe in a god so monstrously evil as the christian god. As monstrous as jesus. Oh i know you probably have this sweet image of a blue eyed gentle meek and mild slightly feminine man who was nice to every living creature. But he is the one bent on eternal torture for those who refused to follow or believe in him. An atrocious person. Why would you want to believe in a book that approves of murder and stoning and genocide and infanticide and slavery and rape? Thank goodness it's all a crock of bullshit fiction.

mada124 said...

@jamesbond Read the Annals, by Tacticus. These mention Jesus. Its actually common knowledge Jesus was a real figure, whether you belive he was God or not, is irrelevant. Im not here to argue about whether or not you think the bible is reliable. You think im fake, fine, thats irrational, but fine. You think the bible is inaccurate, you're naive. You think theres no evidence of Jesus, your mistaken. There more documentation supporting Jesus than there is Pontius Pilate. Do your own research. You seem negative, so this will be my last response to you. Bye felicia.

james bond said...

Well, felicia, I am sorry that you cannot take "negativity" but it's a sign of the weakness of your own position that you back down in the face of an opposing point of view. If you choose not to respond to me, that is your choice, but I ask at least that you read my rebuttal of your historical jesus point: I am a little suspicious that you have probably not in fact read much classical history or literature and if you have studied the Annals of Tacitus you would actually know that even conservative historians are very doubtful about the authenticity of passages that refer to "Christians." Much of what is claimed to be by Tacitus is very spurious and even if the Annals are and references to "Christians" are genuine, the passage about Jesus is of highly doubtful authenticity. Its tone and style of writing do not accord with Tacitus's other writing. No biblical scholars even mention Tacitus in connection to jesus until around the 16th Century, and they most certainly would have if they thought there was anything in it. There was very much forgery and fiction inserted in historical texts in attempts to verify the existence and alleged truths about Jesus. If anything at all of what Tacitus said about christianity or christians is authentic, it is still probable Tacitus was just repeating what others had told him about christian stories or beliefs, without bothering to authenticate his sources. Now if you think you have other evidence to refute the doubtful Tacitus jesus, then by all means write your paper or do your PhD study on it, I would be very very interested in reading it. Josephus suffers from the same objections that are raised about Tacitus as a supposedly verifying source.
Now as to "it's actually common knowledge that Jesus was a real figure" i again must object. No it isn't. It may be a very common belief and it may even be a very widely held belief that jesus is historical, but I suggest what happened is that the myth of your jesus became historicised through religious belief, propaganda, literature and religious teaching in times when people had very low standards of receptivity. Obviously if a story is repeated enough times and in enough places by people ardently promoting it as fact and demanding, often on pain of death, that it be regarded as fact, then the myth becomes very real to those people. It is by no means established that jesus existed. I suggest you read Dr Carrier's book "On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt" and watch some of his talks on the subject. He is a scholar, and makes a very very compelling case.
As to the "accuracy" of the bible, surely you are joking. Talking snakes, witches, an earth that sits on pillars. Now come on, you cannot be serious here. Well thank you for at least reading this Felicia.

mada124 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tom Vouray said...

@mada124

Let me ask my question in a different way.

If you punish a child for doing wrong (or if a judge sentences you for committing a crime), what is the benefit(s) of punishing someone for doing wrong? In other words, do you punish someone just because they do something wrong, or do you also punish someone to help them (and others) learn?

Tom Vouray said...

@mada124

Regarding the fate of people who do not know of jesus before they die, you imply they avoid hell as follows:

"I believe, since God looks at the heart, he knows what a person is like and what the would do. He will save good people who live in ignorance of Jesus, they have not rejected Him, so it is safe to assume this much."

Now, I will quote the bible:
John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

As such, your assumption is in direct conflict with the bible. I do not believe you will find text within the bible that supports your assumption.

Not trying to beat you up here, but this is an excellent example of what happens when you depend upon "absolutes". If the bible is absolutely right, and jesus is absolutely right, then there is no support of your opinion that some people get a "get out of hell free" card, and therefore all go to hell. Now, if jesus had of said "Most people have to go through me to get to heaven" you can make your assumption. But that is not what he said. He said you absolutely can only get to heaven through him.

On the other hand, if you acknowledge that the bible is incomplete, and contains contradictions, but you utilize it as a general guidance (while ignoring logic issues such at the one above), to live a better life for you and the ones around you, then that seems (to me) to be a little more reasonable.

Unfortunately, too many posters on both sides have extreme/absolute opinions on this forum.

mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray

This is where faith comes to play, for me. I must have faith that God will be just to those who deserve it. Perhaps you are right, maybe we are wrong in using absolutes in our interpretation of the Bible. But I genuinely believe that those who have never heard of God who are good people, have His love deep within them. This is the reason that the Bible gives. If I am wrong, so be it, but I will continue to my grave in my belief, because I feel it in my gut.

Romans 1

19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[a] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

God doesn't need humans to talk about Him to people in order for Him to show himself to them if he is in fact God.


Now, about your question about punishment. I think punishment is done out of love, rather, it should be done out of love. For example, you punish your teenage kid for sneaking out a night so he knows that there are consequences for disobedience. With punishment, should come explanation, and teaching. It shouldn't be used as solely because you did something wrong, like the US prison system. Punishment should be one step in a road to recovery. Sometimes it should be avoided completely, to also show forgiveness.

Tom Vouray said...

@mada124

Good response! Just something for you to think about.

Now, backing up a little bit, based upon your previous response, I think you have to agree with me, that as per my research (yes I did read every word listed in the KJV bible that is attributed to jesus) that jesus never stated that he loves everyone/mankind (admittedly he did profess love for his disciples at the last supper).

Now, this one will take a little more time, if you are interested. Please provide the references from both Old and New testaments where god is directly quoted as saying he loves everyone/mankind (and no cheating, no quoting from men). I honestly have not taken the time to do this myself, and yes I do anticipate you will find multiple versus with a direct quote from god. But I am interested in the total number that you find.

Once you do that, I will respond as to why I have asked for the quotes from jesus and god in the bible.

mada124 said...

God's love in the Bible is not necessarily displayed with text. God doesn't speak to man, except through the prophets and dreams, and visions, because He cant without killing us with his presence. Jesus was sent as a direct link to God for humanity. You have presented me with quite the challenge, in finding direct quotes from God himself, speaking of His love. Usually, if he comes out to speak directly to man, He is mad about something. Most of the Bible is written by inspired men. For believers, the Bible is the Word of God, all of it. However, here are some things I found.

Revelation 21

5 And the one sitting on the throne said, “Look, I am making everything new!” And then he said to me, “Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true.” 6 And he also said, “It is finished! I am the Alpha and the Omega—the Beginning and the End. To all who are thirsty I will give freely from the springs of the water of life. 7 All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children.

Malachi 3:17

They shall be mine, says the Lord of hosts, in the day when I make up my treasured possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his son who serves him.


I think what is certainly true, is that God loves his people, those who follow him. After some research, I would say you are in fact correct. God does not love all of mankind, the wicked specifically. Lets not think of God as a man however. While he is infinitely loving, and is Love itself. He is also infinitely just, and Justice itself. If God is Love, so how can he not be loving? Just because we receive punishment, does not mean God doesn't love us. In fact, it means the exact opposite. When the wicked make their eternal decision to reject God, they have no hope. They are running away from home, in a sense. But they cant fend for themselves, so they die. Right now, God doesn't exact justice against sinners immediately, because of grace. Some live extravagant lives, and die old. But justice comes during the final judgment. Justice and punishment are separate concepts. Justice will be carried out by God, because he is the embodiment of it.

mada124 said...


Let think of this on a larger scale. In the beginning, there was nothing but a singularity. An infinite amount of energy and mass in one point. I believe, what we see as the Big Bang, was in fact God initiating creation. So, we have this sentient creator, that exists outside of the universe, who has created a universe, dictating its laws, setting up constants so that there is order. He creates many life forms, and planets, angels, the list goes on. He is a creator, so he creates. But God wanted his own people, who love Him back of their own volition. And so, God creates humanity. He knows everything, so he knows that Man will fall into sin, however, he doesn't stop it. Why would he even create humanity, knowing the pain and suffering that they would inflict on themselves. Why would He allow sin to exist? This is called the Mystery of Iniquity. Unfortunately, it is a mystery for a reason, and I cannot tell you why. Perhaps it is because after all this is said and done, God will have a species he created, called humanity, that lived through sin, and saw what it can do. Lived by faith, and choose to follow Him despite what the reality they lived in said. But here is the question, does it matter? If God is in fact real, why wouldn't we love Him back? He punishes the wicked for their evil, and if He is God, he as the sovereignty to do that. But what about all those people who died at Gods commands, even by his hand? What about them? Can God not save who He wants, and destroy who he wants? As one of the created, I'm in no position to question his methods. We can however, get angry about it, and pray for insight. We don't know the deep mysteries of the universe, or even the oceans on our own planet, but we try to fit God into a box, and judge Him. He is God, and if he is God, surely he knows what is best for us. Not an answer people like to hear, and in many ways it may seem like a cop out. But just think for a second, if you knew 100% fact, God was real, why would you not love Him. All the joy you have every experienced in your life, would be because of him, and He has created an easy way for you to be free the mortal coil of this earth. He wants to be one with humanity. He made us a little lower than the angels of heaven. We are a prized creation of His, and He loves his creations, why would we reject our heavenly Father? Because he kills the wicked? Those who would kill you and rob you blind if they wanted to. What about the innocent children? It is better for God to have killed a child, while they are in fact still innocent, than for them to grow up and become wicked and die eternally. We should look at life on this planet as what is, a trial for humanity. This world is a temporary thing, it will not last forever and ever. Eventually, God will end sin and we wants as many saved as possible. He is Just and he is Love. To me, this duality of the Biblical God further confirms His validity. It is visceral, unlike many other religion. It is focused on humanity, and our salvation. It appeals to many of us, for some reason. Just curious, what do you think causes morality in Humans? Why is there wrong and right?

Tom Vouray said...

@ mada124

Are you typing all of your responses on your phone? And your fingers are not cramped by now? :)

OK, here is my point regarding the lack of quotes by jesus and god regarding their love for mankind: If you go back and review your posts just for this week, and see how many times you reference "god's love" you will see that you have referenced this many, many times. I will assume that you, like many Christians, feel that god and jesus love for you is the most, or one of the most, important things about being 'saved'.

*However, out of over 31,000 verses in the KJV bible, there are none where jesus says he loves mankind, and relatively few where god directly states he loves mankind.*

I ask people trying to 'testify' to me to point out 1 or more versus where the love of mankind is professed by either god or jesus and they can't. My point? In my opinion, many Christians are overly enthusiastic over having a deity that 'loves' them. But if you utilize the bible as the basis of your beliefs, then you are spending way too much time dwelling on something that is not (directly) stated in the bible.

That's it. No need for rebuttal, I am sure you have your own counterpoints. Just wanted to throw that one out there to think about.

Tom Vouray said...

@mada124
regarding punishment:
(hang in there with me)
Would you agree that punishment for wrongdoing can benefit as follows:

1) It provides feedback to the wrongdoer so they can correct their ways, learn from the experience, not hopefully not perform the same misdeed in the future; and
2) Others see that the wrongdoer did something wrong, and they see the punishment, and then they (hopefully) will decide not to do the same misdeed to avoid punishment in the future?

mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray

I would agree with your comments on punishment. Unfortunately, in many cases, punishment is not used in a manner that would lead to positive change. We as humans, should look at the severity of the punishments we give. Year in a prison, locked away from society will not result in a rehabilitated criminal. But they should be severe enough that it deters onlookers from try to commit a crime.

Also, I have a brother. I don't tell him I love him every day. I hardly tell him those exact words (maybe one or twice in my life), but he doesn't doubt that I love him, because of my actions. The same is true for many other relationships I have. We just know, there no need for such words. Words are nothing without action. I think the logic that if Jesus doesn't say he loves us, he hates us, is flawed. Look at his actions. How would you describe them as? If God didnt love us, why are we even breathing. Why is there a plan for salvation at all, if we mean nothing to God. Why would he come and die for our sins. That is the ultimate display of love. Would you die for your loved ones? The love of God is all throughout the bible. The whole thing must be used, one cannot pick and choose.

This is why.

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcomes it.

You cannot exclude verses mentioning Gods love and say, "Well that was written by a man, so it doesn't count" The whole bible is the word of God, and Jesus is the Word.

John 1
"14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

And no, I'm using my PC now lol.

Tom Vouray said...

@mada124

Regarding the benefits of punishment:

Here are your comments with my counterpoints -
"I would agree with your comments on punishment. Unfortunately, in many cases, punishment is not used in a manner that would lead to positive change. We as humans, should look at the severity of the punishments we give. Year in a prison, locked away from society will not result in a rehabilitated criminal. But they should be severe enough that it deters onlookers from try to commit a crime."

In my opinion:
1) The way that your religion punishes people does not lead to positive change. One is only punished AFTER they are dead, and therefore have no ability to learn and change their ways. Too little too late.
2)"look.....at the severity of punishments we give". Your religion only has two outcomes, life in heaven or life in hell. Once again, as per the bible, good people who do not follow jesus who lead a good life spend eternity in hell, bad people that convert to Christianity spend eternity in heaven. There is no reference in the bible that implies that your punishment or reward is adjusted to the way you lived your life.
3) Deter others from doing wrong? Sorry, but you do not know the eternal fate of anyone that has died (you can guess and hope, but you never know for sure). In our court system, we let the public know the fate of those that have been tried, and you can then learn from that experience, but it does not work that way with your religion. So we as humans can not learn from the experiences of others after they die.

Therefore, in my opinion, the "punishment" and "reward" system of your religion is deeply flawed in that it does not provide an opportunity for someone to learn from their mistakes, or the mistakes of others. And apparently, from your comments, so do you!

Thoughts?

mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray

Ending up in hell is a decision that is made. Those who end up there rejected God. It is not a punishment, so much as it is a result of their actions (or inaction). The time is now to make these decisions, when the end comes, it is too late. You can only be saved by faith, not after the fact when it is obvious. That's why people like me are here to warn others. When God reveals Himself, no one will have any excuse. If you notice, the Bible never says the punishment of sin is death, rather the wages. Wages are earned.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray

Also, there is not eternal life in hell. This is a false, unbiblical teaching. There is only death. Those who go to hell do not live there eternally, they die eternally, with no chance for resurrection. The options are not Heaven or Hell, but Life or Death. Eternal Life is a gift, it is not given to the wicked.

Tom Vouray said...

@mada124:

1) I am going to say, in my opinion, that your rebuttal of my 3 points regarding punishment as prescribed by Christianity is not as strong as it can be, and leave it at that.
2) You said "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Are all sins equal?

Tom Vouray said...

@mada124:

1) Regarding that god or jesus were quoted as saying they love mankind -
You said: "Also, I have a brother. I don't tell him I love him every day. I hardly tell him those exact words (maybe one or twice in my life), but he doesn't doubt that I love him, because of my actions. The same is true for many other relationships I have. We just know, there no need for such words. Words are nothing without action."

Interesting. Typically, Christians believe their relationship with their god is a father/child relationship, and yet you chose to use a sibling relationship to explain why god and jesus do not say they love mankind. Not going to let you slide on that one.
a) Let me ask you - did your parents state that they loved you as you were growing up?
b) How would you feel if they never told you that they loved you, even if they treated you well and looked after your welfare?
c) Would you be willing to stop telling god and/or jesus that you love them and just show them by your actions?

[by the way, you should do a better job of letting the ones you love know that you love them, and don't depend upon actions and assumptions]

2) You said: "I think the logic that if Jesus doesn't say he loves us, he hates us, is flawed." I never said jesus hates us. I simply pointed out that he was never quoted as loving mankind.

Tom Vouray said...

@james bond & mada124 (hopefully I am making you mad by grouping you together)

1) Is the use of the term "felica" an insult of some type? Enlighten me as I have missed that one.

2)Regarding morality. Mada asked how it came about in humans. In my opinion (there's that term again), morality grew out of man not acting only in self-interest, but in the interest of others and/or man's own good. I agree wholehearted with james bond that, based upon the words in the bible, that our current system of defining and enforcing morality (at least in America, I can't speak for other places) is far superior to that presented in the bible. To quote james bond "Unlike the god of the bible, we do not approve of slavery, rape, genocide, infanticide, murder, stoning, or human sacrifice. So you see, we are very very much more moral than the bible. Most of the hideous acts of terrorism we see in the world today are perpetrated by devoutly religious people."

It is my opinion that what is moral is a solid gray area and not black/white. I also believe that the definition of what is moral changes over time. For example, we use to have legal slavery in America, and then realized it was wrong, and got rid of it. (Care to quote bible versus that say slavery is bad?).

I believe it is the "you are Christian or you are evil/wicked/ungodly/sinner" provides a simple, black/white view of the world that many believers crave, because they just don't want to face the real world is a complex, very gray, and constantly changing place. Unfortunately, the moral guidance provided in the bible is (in my opinion) extremely narrow and grossly incomplete.

And here is my next question for mada: what is your opinion of divorce?

Tom Vouray said...

@mada124:

And just to top things off, I believe that the concept that someone must be punished to prevent them from not being moral is somewhat juvenile. The implication is that without punishment, people would do anything they wanted to do. I personally do not need a law (or religious reference) to prevent me from killing others. As a mature (?) adult, I recognize what has been defined as moral and right, both by society and by my own opinions.

*I do not even think about punishment, as that implies that I would commit a sin/crime/moral no-no if the punishment was not a certainty. Do you feel that way, would you go wild and do bad things if there were no punishment? Do you feel others around you would turn bad if there were no punishment?*

Now I will acknowledge that if we eliminated all legal penalties and religious references as to why you should not kill others, that there will be some folks that would go out and kill others (particularly on Monday morning). But then again, there are plenty of killings now, with both stiff penalties from the law (and religious ramifications, if you are religious) in place. So I don't see that as being the reason the vast majority of people are moral, and act in a moral way.

Tom Vouray said...

@james bond & mada124 (hopefully I am *NOT* making you mad by grouping you together)

Sorry, this blog does apparently not allow editing after posting.

james bond said...

Tom Vouray: hopefully I am making you mad by grouping you together: no, not making me mad, can't speak for Mada.

"1) Is the use of the term "felica" an insult of some type?" No, Tom I thought Felicia must be mada's real name because one of the replies was signed off that way, if you look back. I get so sick of scrolling laboriously up and down, but I will try to find it. Oh yes, there it is, she said "Do your own research. You seem negative, so this will be my last response to you. Bye felicia." So either she is calling me "felicia" or she meant to put a comma in between "bye" and "Felicia" indicating her name is Felicia. I realise people use false names on websites. You probably think I've used a false name but no, that's my actual name.

On the morality question, it always amazes me that religious people do not understand the origins of moral systems. I agree with what you say about them, Tom. Any society that has lasted for a reasonable length of time can only last with an understanding and an implementation of basic rules of consideration of others. It isn't rocket science, is it? It's just a utilitarian way of coexisting with others. And it's only by caring about others that we get cared for ourselves. What could possibly be simpler, Mada or Felicia? No one wants their family members hurt or molested so all can see the benefits of not hurting or molesting others; it becomes enshrined in morals and laws. Basic, basic, basic. Why is it that religious people think without a scary monster in the sky threatening to punish them eternally, people would just rape and kill to their heart's content? Shows their own lack of moral compass.

So we are very much in agreement about biblical failings, Tom. I've made Mada-Felicia mad with my comments and she refuses to talk to me any more, but honestly it seemed some of the things she was saying were just silly. Maybe I came on a bit strong, so I apologise for that. I do lose patience when christians go on and on with biblical quotes. This would not be so bad if they bothered trying to explain the horror quotes, but they are happy to blithely ignore those or twist them round so as to pretend they're somehow okay when they are manifestly not. I also get saddened by how horribly infantilized religious people are, needing this spectre of a great father to dispense punishments or love or whatever on his own terms, and in very particular ways. If the god was real, it's a very disturbed individual with serious personality disorder, demanding a brand of submission so extreme as to be absolutely insane. Such a belief stops people from developing intellectually and also makes them liable to exploitation by the religious leaders who claim to have some sort of godly authority, which is something we see happen so often it's sickening.

Anyway, good on you for keeping the dialogue going, but I don't think you will convince mada-felicia of anything. Cheers, James.

Tom Vouray said...

@james

So your real name is James Bond? Were the parents aware of the novels and movies with the character of the same name? The things we parents do to our children!!!!:)

Regarding folks with differing opinions:
I have no intention of converting or persuading anyone to my way of thinking. When I first visited this site, I would get frustrated in that visiting Christians just could not see the logic of my viewpoints. But then I realized that it more or less just comes down to opinions, and everyone has their own opinions. And I really just don't care about the opinions of others posting here (on either side). If they are happy with their beliefs, then more power to them, as long as they do not hurt anyone. I honestly do believe that many Christians that post here do genuinely want to 'help' others and are sincere in their beliefs.

I personally find it intellectually stimulating to spar back and forth with people of different beliefs, and am not offended at what they say (unless they get a holier than thou attitude). But once again, in no way am I trying to convince someone else that their opinions and beliefs are 'wrong'. I try (and am not always successful) not to offend others, but now days that can be hard to do.

I think visiting Christians think that this blog is a hotspot for recruiting atheists, when the reality is that most atheists I know are like me, and don't care what your beliefs are. I will say that I do enjoy trying to get believers to think about "this is what I was told about god, jesus and christianity" versus "this is what is written in the bible". And if in the end they disagree, no big deal.

mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray @ James Bond

The morals in the Bible are what America's laws were based on. Have you read the Ten Commandments. They are found in Exodus 20 if you care to look. It has all the basics, and is the first recorded instance of moral laws. Unless you care to show me another. The issue I have with this blogs main post is that it looks at the Bible, a very large collection of books and other documents, and takes a very specific part of it, without giving any reference, and people proceed to judge every person who believes in it. You look for what you want to see in the Bible, and you do it without an open mind, so you will find nothing. Of course it makes no sense to you.


AGAIN

1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

You mistake my replies as arguments and rebuttals. I am telling you what the truth about God and the Bible is. You can argue against it, but because you don't have the spirit, your are speaking on things you do no understand, so I am correcting you, not suggesting.

In many of these cultures, human sacrifice and rape was part of society. It was a normal thing for them. They were not innocent, in fact they had innocent blood on their hands. If God decides to kill you, you deserve it. Because God is justice, so his actions are all just and true. Despite your "opinion". This is why I don't care about how many people God has killed. He is God.

Ezekiel 23:39
"On the very day that they sacrificed their children to their idols, they boldly came into my Temple to worship! They came in and defiled my house."

Should God have spared the lives of people who sacrifice children? Is that moral to you?


Are you God, or greater than your creator, that you can question His judgments?

You tell me if the following sounds like it approves of "slavery, rape, genocide, infanticide, murder, stoning, or human sacrifice"

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

Ecclesiastes 3
12 So I concluded there is nothing better than to be happy and enjoy ourselves as long as we can. 13 And people should eat and drink and enjoy the fruits of their labor, for these are gifts from God.

1 John 4:19
We love because he first loved us.


1 Corinthians 13:13
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

1 Peter 4:8
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.



mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray @ James Bond

Regarding the world being grey.

Ecclesiastes 3

3 For everything there is a season,
a time for every activity under heaven.
2
A time to be born and a time to die.
A time to plant and a time to harvest.
3
A time to kill and a time to heal.
A time to tear down and a time to build up.
4
A time to cry and a time to laugh.
A time to grieve and a time to dance.
5
A time to scatter stones and a time to gather stones.
A time to embrace and a time to turn away.
6
A time to search and a time to quit searching.
A time to keep and a time to throw away.
7
A time to tear and a time to mend.
A time to be quiet and a time to speak.
8
A time to love and a time to hate.
A time for war and a time for peace.


Yes, sometimes when your at war, you end up killing civilians. The ancient nation of Israel, which is the nation that carried out these killings, was at constant war with the surrounding nations. They killed Israeli children and women. When you go to destroy your enemy, you don't leave some alive to come back later and kill you. Its called war. You still support the same America that dropped an Atomic Bomb on 2 Civilian populated cities, do you not? A Time for everything, as you said, it is not black and white.


I'm not a female.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/bye-felicia


I will not comment on Divorce, I don't care what people do. I dont care if your gay, I dont care if your a murderer. People think Christians are nit picking rule followers. I smoke weed, and curse, and get mad. I go out on the weekends and party. Is it right? Not always, but im not perfect. That what Jesus is for. Its a short and sweet message, but you want to complicate it. First, know God, then other thing will be revealed to you. Your character will change to be more like his. Which is love, whether you believe it or not.


Also, regrading Heaven and Hell as punishment. Again, it is a choice. You think it black and white, and you go to hell because of this sin and heaven because you didn't sin. NO. NO. You die in the second death because you rejected God, and your sins certainly wont help you out. But accepting him washes you clean. Are you not choosing to reject God? So when the time comes, the blame is squarely on you. Your taking your life into your own hand when you reject God. And no man can save himself. Is that to complicated?

Tom Vouray said...

@mada124:

Thanks for explaining the 'Felicia' reference. I have not (yet) seen the movie you referenced, but it is good to know you have a sense of humor. I am prone to quoting lines from Monty Python and various 1970s movies, which some of the younger folks don't catch at all.

Sorry for all the posts and questions today, guess I was in hyperdrive this morning (lesson learned, don't drink 2 cans of diet Mountain Dew before lunch). You seem somewhat frustrated in the multiple questions and posts, so I will stop with the questions (for the time being), and allow you to ask any question(s) that you care to ask. You are to be complimented in that you have 'hung in there' more than others that have visited the site.

Tom Vouray said...

@mada124:

One more quick fact: I believe that for something to exist or be real does not depend upon anyone believing in it. Then again, I am not a spiritual person.

james bond said...

mada.

I have to correct you on something though, the morals argument you try so desperately to maintain has been ably refuted by the late Christopher Hitchens and other atheists and historians so many times it's absurd to keep on trying to resuscitate it. You say "The morals in the Bible are what America's laws were based on." No. The Constitution contains no references to God, Jesus Christ, or Christianity. That document does not state that the US. is a Christian nation. James Madison and Thomas Jefferson opposed mixing church and state. They would never have supported an officially Christian nation. Christians really need to do their homework on this point and they will see how the founders of the nation actively resisted the infiltration of religion into government and were very opposed to congregationalist pressures. Please do some study. Look at the history and then come back and have the good grace to admit that the nation was NOT founded on christian principals. Concede that you are wrong, have made a mistake or have been misinformed on this point. You cannot pretend history is different from what it was.

If you are merely claiming that government reflected the golden rule of treating others the way you have them treat you those sorts of morals pre date your religion by a long way. The GOOD moral principals that you find in the bible, in between all the horror, were not made up by christians or by any religion. So you can drop the holier than thou stuff, you have not earned the right to be in that position. You say "The morals in the Bible are what America's laws were based on." No they are not. And it's just as well they are not. The bible's morals are absolutely obscene and immoral. I am still waiting for a christian to mount an ACCEPTABLE defense to the biblical approval of slavery, rape, genocide, infanticide and torture. You know that I can quote the relevant passages if you want me to and you know that they are absolutely wicked and disgusting. You and all of us are very fortunate that America did not base its laws upon biblical dictates or biblical "morals." You need to stop trying to say that all is sweet and lovely and loving in the bible. There is more violence, hatred, blood and nastiness in the bible than there is sweet lovingness. By a long shot.

You say I "don't have the spirit" and so don't understand the bible. That's just a silly unfalsifiable claim to special pleading. I can easily say that you don't have a special mystical knowledge that I have and so of course you don't understand things but that would be just as silly a claim and I would not stoop to such an absurd tactic.

james bond said...

Your comments at times shock me. "In many of these cultures, human sacrifice and rape was part of society. It was a normal thing for them. They were not innocent, in fact they had innocent blood on their hands. If God decides to kill you, you deserve it. Because God is justice, so his actions are all just and true. Despite your "opinion". This is why I don't care about how many people God has killed. He is God." This shows how lacking in morals christians can be. Not caring about the millions killed by someone is highly immoral. You think that's a better way to think than actually having human compassion I really and glad I do not know you. It's the same reasoning terrorists use to justify their atrocities. Anything your god allegedly does is okay by you. Killing all the men women, children and infants is okay by you, if god wants that. Why on earth do you want such a foul and hateful, murderous and psychopathic person in control of the world? What is wrong with you? You justify rape and murder on the grounds that it was "normal" for societies at that time. If it was normal or common, that does not make it right. If there was actually a good god, that god would at least realise that such practices are wrong and do something about it. He didn't. He is either evil or non existent. The latter is the more likely.

You say "You still support the same America that dropped an Atomic Bomb on 2 Civilian populated cities, do you not? A Time for everything, as you said, it is not black and white." The dropping of an atomic bomb on people is a hideous act and I do not support it in any circumstances. The war was coming to an end at the time of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It did not have to happen. It was an inhumane and unnecessary thing to do, especially the second of the two bombs. So that was one of America's lowest moral points ever. And there have been many. War itself is wrong, and I cannot be so morally lacking as you to just say oh well, everything has its season. War is a human failing that we need to try to overcome, not go on justifying it and accepting it as inevitable. There are better ways of resolving disputes between nations.

You try to justify the primitive ideas of Heaven and Hell which I think are laughable. Any god that was good would surely be smart enough to find ways to encourage good behaviour that are not so hideous and let's face it, utterly unintelligent. What good comes of eternal fire and torture? The sadistic pleasure of watching the suffering? If I was a god I'd be much happier trying to teach the sinners to be good in this life. If I was all powerful I'd be able to do it. Only primitive minds think of things like great f torture chambers of fire and brimstone and endless pain and torture: oh wait, the bible was written by ignorant primitive desert dwellers, hey, could that be the reason? Come on mada, bring your thinking up to date, you're hanging back with the brutes.


Well anyway, that's enough said for now.

james bond said...

AND TOM

yes, being James Bond is not easy. I hate the jokes that I've had to hear all my life whenever I have to give my name. Hate Bond films have only manage to sit through one all the way to the end. I don't like good-guy and bad-guy binaries which is one of the many reasons I don't like the bible. Life's much more nuanced than that. So I hate Bond film quotes and allusions. Yuk. But I'm stuck with the name. I have at times used nick names and false names and like those better.

mada124 said...

@James Bond

Hell is not eternal. You die forever if you end up there. So part of the reason you think God is horrible isn't even true. Also, to be clear. The God i belive in is not a person, as you seem to wrongly think. He is an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent entity that exists outside the universe, or bulk universe, whatever theory you belive about the universe. That is why I do not question His actions. How could I understand. Imagine trying to explain the 3rd dimension to a 2D person. Good luck.I have had personal experiences with God, I have felt his presence. You think I just belive for no reason? Trust me, in this world its easier to not be Christian at my age and in my generation especially.

"You justify rape and murder on the grounds that it was "normal" for societies at that time."


I do not justify it. Re read carefully. Those nations, like the Amalakites, did these things, so God ordered Israel to wipe them out. I do not support this. If you read, youll find not all nations where treated with death. Only those whole had earned that response. Also, the Bible is recorded history. Guess what? Humans are violent, and they do bad things. So thats whats recorded. Yes, it has very graphic, violent books in it. Not for the faint hearted, but it is the Truth. Humanity has caused this, not God. His intention was paradise amd eternal Joy. The bible is not teaching us to do these things, its telling you what happened. I've showed you what the bible teaches, and you have ignored it. Fine.

mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray @James Bond

I am not frustrated, bit incredibly disheartened. Think from my point of view. I seriously belive what I say you both. I also view humanity as my own family. So that makes you both my brothers, we are the same species. I do not want anyone to miss out on what God has to offer, and I believe our enemy, the Deceiver, Satan, is out to take as many humans as he can with him. I feel a fire in my bones to try to persuade you both, and anyone who reads this that God is on our side and that he is real. But i cant help but feel that ive only worked to push you further from His salvation. I pray in earnest for you both, I hope that as the time draws near, you "eyes" are opened. You must feel there is something more to this world than an endless cycle of death and war and suffering for humanity. I want you to have the hope I have. That is why I respond. Yeah, tbh sometimes I do get frustrated, like at James, but I apologize. I also want you to know I do not think i am "holier than thou" In fact, because I belive and still sin, I am in many ways worse. All have sinned and fall short, but Gods gift is eternal life through his son. You must first belive before you can understand the more complex themes in the Bible. Satan has done a number on garnering hatred towards Christianity. Many atrocities have been committed in the name of Christianity and religion, but please dont attribute that to the source material. Humans skew everything to have it work to thier goals. They are wrong. I am not using "fear". I genuinely belive that great sorrow await thise who reject his name. I have cried in the night thinking about the lost souls, who have no idea because they are led astray. I know you dont belive me, but I am sincere. Thats all I got. This is my last effort. Ill post my Facebook page if you doubt my identity. Im up at 2 am typing this on a phone, because it pulls at my "soul". I dont know what your thinking deep down, idk if the seed im sowing will take root. Know that your in my prayers though. I believe you both to be good people, from your responses and disgust of violence, and I believe my God will reach to you, in some way. I pray to see both of you in paradise. If i make it there myself.

james bond said...

mada:

"personal experiences" of god are not evidence of a god. I can say I have personal experiences too but personal experience is a highly subjective thing that can be interpreted in any way I like. My dreams are personal experiences.

And no, the bible is NOT recorded history. It is a bunch of unoriginal writings (all the stories are plagiarised from older myths) from numerous unknown and unverifiable sources (the Gospel authors have NOT been verified. No one knows who wrote them) and have been rewritten from ancient languages, retold, re translated into many languages, with no checks as to the accuracy of the translations as they went. There are NO primary source documents to verify anything much at all in the bible. NOTHING to validate the alleged existence of your alleged jesus. Nothing. Which is pretty surprising given the great stir he is supposed to have caused and the miracles and other amazing things he is alleged to have performed. But no one seems to have bothered to write it down. Funny that. We already went through the unreliability of Tacitus and Josephus so no need to revisit that fallacy. So when you say "I've showed you what the bible teaches, and you have ignored it. Fine." I definitely ignore fairy stories. When I get taught something I expect to be taught the truth not bulldust.

I fail to see the relevance of your point that "Humans are violent, and they do bad things." in relation to the violent acts in the bible commanded by god. The slaughter of the Amalekites was commanded by god. "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." This is not just humans being violent is is humans ordered by god to be violent even to suckling infants. And you still claim that god is good. Wtf? You justify a terrorist act in which suckling babies have their brains bashed out. You are a sadist. You are inhuman. These people, may I remind you, are supposedly god's own children. Which makes him even more of a complete asshole. His own. Think about that for a minute. Punishing suckling children for sins committed by others. And why would a god take sides in a parochial little war between squabbling tribes of people? Why would he not just use his omnipotence to stop people fighting. Why not just immobilise the people as they fight? Why murder the infants? I really would like a humane answer to this. WELL i don't think there is a possible humane answer, the act can only ever be evil. You worship a heartless and brutal terrorist. Well good luck to you on that, I would be more choosy in my gods if I ever needed one.

james bond said...

mada

you say " I pray in earnest for you both, I hope that as the time draws near, you "eyes" are opened." Our eyes are not the eyes that are unopened, mada. Please don't waste your time praying for us. I am sorely tempted to use Christopher Hitchen's words when someone said to him "I will pray for you." He said "I'll think for you." But I will try not to provoke you.

And I don't believe you have sinned. I don't believe in the nonsense concept of sin. You have just been human and done things you regret. So what? You have not bashed infant's brains out, I assume. Your god has. I am not interested in or attracted to the idea of paradise or eternal life. They are fictions. Or at least we can be so enraptured with the joy of living, here and now, that that is paradise. We make it ourselves. I don't need to believe in something after death. I just want to die, like every other living thing does and will. It's what life is. We are here and we are gone. I am satisfied with that and if you are not, I feel sorry for you.

Promising a heaven is merely trying to force people to be content with suffering. I think every possible effort should be made to live a fulfilling and happy life now, and to help others to do so. It's the only chance you have. You belittle life by wanting another life.

I haven't finished but my friend needs me to take her for a walk. I will continue later....in the meantime, stop wasting your time praying for me. Or anyone....lol.

mada124 said...

@James Bond

And when you find out you are wrong, what then? Sorry, I will not stop praying for you. Nor will I carry on with this. Dont insult me.

Tom Vouray said...

@mada124

As per my previous posts, I have stated that I think you are obviously a good person with good intentions, and I wish you well in your efforts.

Don't lose any sleep over anything anyone posts on this blog, it is just a blog, not worth waking up at 2 AM to fret over.

If you look back over the various postings on the blog, the vast majority of postings by visiting Christians are along the lines of

"You are a FOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Listen to me and don't question what I say and you will be OK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or you will be in HELL FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!"

(I don't know why they love all caps and exclamation marks, but they sure do, check it out for yourself). They typically only post once, and never return (or at least never admit they visit the site). Therefore, sometimes the responses you get from non-believers on the blog can be a little rough. You, on the other hand, have attempted to present your case in a more thoughtful manner without being as confrontational as others have been. For that, you have my thanks, and I wish you well on your journey. Stop by sometime and check up on us when you have the time and inclination.

And hey, if nothing else, we gave you lots of practice on how to respond to non-believers that might come in handy for you later!

Tom Vouray said...

@Tom and mada:

Today is the 71st anniversary of the US dropping the first atomic bomb on Japan.

At the risk of disagreeing with you both, I have no problems with the fact that the US dropped the (uranium) bomb on Hiroshima, and the (plutonium) bomb on Nagasaki.

If you review historical documents you will find that the Japanese were indeed losing the war by that point in time, but all indications were that they were ready to fight to the end, and would not surrender. It was projected that the losses in human life on both sides would exceed a million or more if the Allies were to attempt to take Japan by sea and landing on their shores. Therefore the atomic bombs were considered to be the lesser of two evils, that actually would result in saving more Japanese than it would kill.

Many people assume that using the atomic bombs was a bad thing (it was), and that we wiped out people without giving them a chance to surrender. But that ignores the time between the first and second bomb. Japan had an opportunity to surrender after Hiroshima, but chose not to quit. The generals and high ranking members of the Japanese military were still willing to fight on after the second bomb was dropped on Nagasaki, but, to his credit, it was the Emperor that over-ruled them and finally decided to surrender.

In 2016 one can look back in history, and wonder how whole countries or peoples can follow the fanatical propaganda of a leader, political group, or religion, and do the things that they do. But unfortunately, we are still stuck with fellow human beings that are doing the same thing in the 21st century. Oh well, maybe someday we will all grow up.

james bond said...

mada

I have no more insulted you than you me. And your statement that "And when you find out you are wrong, what then?" presumes I will find out that I am wrong. I would have preferred you to have said "If" and not "When" because you have no more knowledge than I do. I am not afraid of being wrong. Are you? Because if the other religions are right, you will end up in their versions of hell. Are you afraid of that? I thought not. So why expect me to be afraid that your religion is correct? If you want to get petty and stop talking to me again, do so, it's your prerogative. Shows the weakness of your position, though.

And Tom, it disappoints me to hear anyone say "I have no problem with the bombs dropped on Japan." No one can be that heartless. I hope any decent human being has a problem with such mass slaughter of thousands and thousands of innocent people. Men, women, children, infants, everyone. How can you "have no problem with that"? Sorry, but I lost some respect for you for your heartless comment on that score. I feel nothing but pain and sorrow for those people. I lived in Tokyo for a while and I loved the Japanese people who befriended me. Not that that matters, I would feel pain for any innocent people massacred in that way or in any other way. To say you "have no problem" with it? Where is your humanity, your empathy, your recognition that these are people just like you. I am very disappointed in that comment. If you had said something like you understand the US felt they were driven to commit the hideous slaughter as a last resort it might have almost sounded reasonable, or if you'd said more people might have died had the bombs NOT been dropped (though I very much doubt this was the case) it would at least have seemed slightly less heartless than "I don't have a problem with it." It is looking upon such acts of human cruelty with pragmatic lack of empathy that allows barbarity to occur, and rationalisations of military destruction to be enacted. Ends justifying means is a very seductive rationale but very easily abused and often the ends sought are not even certain.

Tom Vouray said...

@james bond

Well, I guess I did come across as heartless, my apologies. I can be overly concise sometimes, which leads to misunderstandings. Allow me to elaborate.

You said: "If you had said something like you understand the US felt they were driven to commit the hideous slaughter as a last resort it might have almost sounded reasonable, or if you'd said more people might have died had the bombs NOT been dropped (though I very much doubt this was the case) it would at least have seemed slightly less heartless than "I don't have a problem with it." "

I thought I did say that the logic at the time was that fewer Japanese and Allies would die by dropping the bombs than if the Allies mounted a land assault on Japan, but in any case here it is again.

When I say it does not bother me, I am saying it does not bother me that it took the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to stop the war. If they were not killed with an atomic bomb, then they could have been shot, crushed, (non atomic) bombed, or any other dozens of other ways that were in play in WWII to kill people. If the objective is to kill people, the end result is the same, regardless of the method used.

Now with that said, here are two horrible specific aspects to the use of atomic weapons in Japan:

1) Innocents were killed. Agreed. Completely unacceptable. Not justifying the use of the bombs, but most people do not realize that the vast majority of other major cities of Japan except for Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki (and a few more) were already either carpet bombed or even worse, fire bombed. And the bombing extended well beyond mere military targets, killing probably hundreds of thousands of civilians who probably did not want any part of the war. So were tens of thousands of civilians killed by the atomic bombs? Absolutely. However, were tens of thousands of civilians killed by other methods prior to that? Absolutely. And did the Japanese stop and surrender? Absolutely not. Therefore the use of atomic weapons were indeed the 'last resort', and the choice to use them was not taken lightly.
2) The method of killing was pretty gruesome. Effectively, people are killed 3 ways. The first is that you are basically microwaved by the initial blast from gamma and other radiation if you are close enough. The second is either from heat or the explosive force if you are farther away. The third is the long term effects of radiation, typically cancer(s) if you survive 1 and 2. But then again, all of the other methods used in WWII to kill people were only slightly less gruesome. Recall we are talking about 1930s and 1940s technology, there were no 'smart' bombs or drones that allow precisely killing the intended targets. But the shear magnitude of death and destruction on a massive scale is horrifying, as compared to a bullet to the head.

With all of that said, I do have a problem with each and every needless death of a person, from the elderly to the newborns, that has occurred (and is continuing to occur today) during wars and conflicts. I do have a problem with all weapons, atomic, nuclear, gas, chemical, biological, or bow and arrows that are used to kill other human beings. So believe it or not, I do have empathy for those killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki by atomic bombs, and I wish that it had never happened. But I also wished that the Japanese leaders had of surrendered prior to that, so that there would be more survivors on both sides of the conflict.

james bond said...

To Tom

Thanks, but I can't continue with this thread of this discussion. The absolute barbarity of wartime murder is too sickening for me now. And I've written a thesis on the topic. I'm exhausted by it. I will confine my future arguments on the subject of barbarism to biblical slaughter enacted by the alleged christian god, which at least is complete fiction. And try to erase some of the images you've put into my head. Can't deal with them.

Tom Vouray said...

@james:

Sorry for the imagery, guess I went from too concise to too detailed.

Is your thesis available from your university in PDF or other format that can be downloaded? I would like to take a look at it.

I guess in the meantime that mada124 has left the building (for the time being).

james bond said...

@Tom Vouray:

My thesis is in the process of being examined now, so I will keep it private. I am assuming it will be passed but you never know. And its subject is a trilogy about WWI written by Pat Barker, about war poetry, and shell shock suffered as a result of horrendous experiences at the front. It deals with Wilfred Owen, Sassoon, Rosenberg, and others who went through it etc. When and if it gets passed I may be more confident and willing to let others read it.

And yes, I think mada has had enough and is wasting her time praying for us sinners. Rolling eyes emoticon here.

james bond said...

@ Tom Vouray

Oh, my bad, sorry "his" time. That Felicia thing again.

Tom Vouray said...

@james

1) Here is a bible verse(taken completely out of context, as always) for you to refer to the next time our friend, or someone like him, pops back up again on the blog:
Proverbs 1:22

2) Mada124 made the following statements:

"I smoke weed, and curse, and get mad. I go out on the weekends and party. Is it right? Not always, but im not perfect. That what Jesus is for. Its a short and sweet message, but you want to complicate it."

The more common version of this is "I am not perfect, just saved." as seen on many bumper stickers.

Here's a random thought. If sin is so bad (in theory god created the big wonderful universe, and all he frets about is the morality on planet Earth?), then it should be much worse to proclaim to be a Christian and sin. Effectively, jesus would be more of an enabler than a savior.

On the flip side (pun intended), in the 1960s and 1970s the comedian Flip Wilson had a great routine where he was supposed to be a christian, but every time he did something bad, he would say "The devil made me do it!" By claiming there is a devil, christians can absolve themselves of personal responsibility by blaming a (nonexistent) entity.

So you have the perfect solution to sin: one entity forgives you of your sins such that you continue without guilt, and you always have another entity to blame for you committing sins.

Boy, our ancestors sure were clever!

mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray

I cant resist a good argument. Although now my goal is less to convince and more to just defend certain things.

The statement "the devil made me do it" is actually wrong. The devil cannot make anyone do anything, he can send temptations, but one must choose to succumb to them. Even Jesus was tempted in the wilderness for 40 days and nights.


Also, sin is defined as breaking the Law Christians belive God gave us. It not so much the sin itself as it is the reason behind it. Lust of the flesh is a sin, but what male hasnt looked at a female and had such thoughts. If you avoid lust, you avoid possible negative outcomes. The purpose, i think, is to nip it in the bud. To avoid a snowball effect. Hitler didnt start out that way, if you know what I mean. I think God's intention is cause you to think rather than live out those carnal desires, obeying your bodies every whim. Pre marital sex is a sin because it is a selfish act. What if a child is conceived and the parents split up? This is usually the case, not always. The child is deprived of a wholesome childhood now. I dont know if God is as concerned with the sin so much as he is with the cause behind it.

I also think alot of issues with Christianity as a religion come from the over focus on these laws and following. If you read about Jesus, he was not well received by the Jewish leaders and Priests. He was very anti legalism, as am I. God isnt not concerned with how many of His laws you can keep, but your efforts to try and keep them. One day you should check out Ecclesiasties. Its a good read even as a non believer, it has clever advice and shows, what I think, is Gods wisdom.

james bond said...

@ Tom Vouray

I'm going to address one of mada's points even despite being persona non grata with him. The idea that lust is sinful (even aside from my view that the invented concept of sin is nonsense anyway) is ridiculous. If there were no lust there would be no sex and no us. It's an essential element of sexual attraction. To make it a sin shows how fucked up ancient notions were when it came to natural human sexuality. So lust is not and need not be "avoided" just kept within bounds that respect others' rights and freedom from assault. Pre-marital sex is not a sin, nor a selfish act when both people want it. It need have nothing but pleasurable outcomes. Conception can easily be avoided if people do not want babies. You know this, mada. Denying people a natural pleasure is quite silly when any undesirable outcomes can be avoided. Even if you don't like it, people are going to have sex anyway, so strong are natural sexual urges. Trying to suppress the urges can lead to even more undesirable outcomes: the sexual molestation of children by priests who are supposed to suppress all their sexual urges is one of those outcomes.

And the idea of an accidental pregnancy leading to unhappiness if the unmarried parents split up is a nonsense one. Millions upon millions of marriages break up, despite there being children. My point is being married before you have sex is absolutely no guarantee of anything at all. So stop trying to attribute all these alleged "rules" to some sort of godly "wisdom."

Tom Vouray said...

Mada! Welcome back! And I might add a very lucid posting as well.

I am going off on another tangent this morning, and postulate the following:

The availability of the bible for the masses to read, along with the increase of the number of people who can read, has contributed significantly to an increase of atheism.

I propose that the bible was written when the vast majority of people in the world did not have a copy (i.e. - before the printing press), and could not read (before the educational systems were focused on having the masses learn to read). As such, priests and scribes could control and fashion the content of the bible as it went through hundreds, possibly thousands of iterations. But in recent time (lets say middle 1800s), Christianity peaked, and has been going downhill ever since. That coincides with the availability of affordable copies of the bible, along with public education.

In the 21st century, I have paper copies of the bible somewhere in my house, but rely on a KJV bible ap to do my research. Which virtually anyone can now do, assuming you can afford a device to access the various programs (if not, you can go old school with the paper copy). And many people are doing exactly what I did - looking at EVERYTHING in the bible, not just the portions of the bible that priests and preachers utilize to develop sermons and evangelize others. And fundamentally (that is not a pun, but you can consider it one) there is a giant gap between the concept that the bible and god and jesus are perfect, and what is actually written in the bible.

I will sum it up this way: reading the bible made me an atheist.

Thoughts?

mada124 said...

@James Bond

I respectfully disagree. I think there is a misconception with the word lust and equating it to desire. When I say lust, i mean lust of the flesh. Of course we need sexual desire in order ot be driven to mate, but too much of anything is a bad thing.


Check this out, I think it may surprise you.
She[a]
Songs of Solomon 1

2 Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth!
For your love is better than wine;
3 your anointing oils are fragrant;
your name is oil poured out;
therefore virgins love you.
4 Draw me after you; let us run.
The king has brought me into his chambers.

There's plenty more in that book about sexual desire, it is by no means a sin to find women desirable, but when it is when becomes unhealthy, the lust of flesh. Sexual addiction, addiciton to prostitution, these are drivers for the illegal sex trade. The porn industry is certainly not without its immoral flaws and the mistreatment of women. I did not mean to imply everyone who wants to have sex is an evil sinner, but as you can see, lust can cause suffering. Thus we should practice self control.

mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray

I disagree. I think that the cause of the rise of atheism is because of the scientific advancement humanity has achieved. Its really remarkable how far we've come in just 100 years. This coupled with religious legalism contrasting with the social changes in western countries has lead to a rise atheism. People dont want to follow a bunch of rules, especially in thier youth. Following Christ means letting go of many worldy desires, and many do not want to do that. I wont discredit your reasoning, im sure some have read the bible and come to the conclusion that it is not for them. But I dont see that as the main cause.

People are different, when I read the bible for myself, I found truth in its words. I was troubled by some of the things in it, especially the seemingly unnecessary killing. This is what drove me to learn more. If i was making up a religion, I would have God be the good guy, saving the innocent, essentially the ideal "benevolent creator". But God describes himself as a jealous God. He demands respect from his creations. My reasoning is as follows. This is the God we have. Like it or not. If he wanted us all dead, why am I even alive now. I have this natural fascination with concepts larger than humanity, that seem incomprehensible. I want to understand them, and I feel this is, the Christian God, the truth. Maybe im dead wrong. ( of course I dont think I am) But let's say im wrong. I die and thats it. No harm done. But if I am correct, the satisfaction of having been accepted by such an all powerful being just by simply having faith will be incredible. I hope for a better world, that is promised by the Bible. I hope for no more suffering, death. I hope to explore the universe and ask its creator questions about black holes and pulsars. I want to explore the rings of saturn. Im not satisfied with the existence I have now, and perhaps it is placebo, but accepting God gives me meaning and peace of mind.

Dee said...

Tom, it's very interesting that reading the Bible made you an atheist. You can't really claim that as a generalization though, because I know of more than a few intellectuals who were actually drawn to serve Christ by reading and studying the Bible. I have to say I'm curious what might have happened in your life that bent you that way (anti-God). Reading Scripture can't have been the only thing.

I would add, mada, that God is a "good guy" and saves the innocent. Except that no one is actually innocent. Rather, he responds to repentance. Yes, there is a lot of killing in the Old Testament. I won't deny that, and it is troubling. But what else I find is stories like the prostitute Rahab in Jericho who was saved together with her family because she believed in the greatness of Yahweh God. As the story goes, 2 spies were sent into the camp. For what purpose? (The battle plan involved marching around the city for a week and the wall fell down). God knows people's hearts. He saw Rahab and he sent her a way out. You will note the Isrealite camp included "foreigners" or "aliens". God has never turned down anyone who has a heart of repentance. Even the evil King Ahab was shown mercy in a moment of repentance. He cleanses our hearts by destroying sin, but we must be willing to part with it, otherwise we will be destroyed as well. In the Old Testament it was very literal destruction but people were always given warning and a chance to repent. For example, when the ground opened up to swallow the sons of Korah, they were first told to reconsider their rebellion and come back in the morning. Then, when they would not back down, this instruction was given: “And he spoke to the congregation, saying, "Depart, please, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest you be swept away with all their sins."” (Numbers‬ ‭16:26‬ ‭ESV‬‬). That phrase "swept away with all their sins" has always stuck with me. God is in the business of destroying sin. If we cling to it, we will also be destroyed. Maybe not on earth, but surely after we are done here. I'm not saying I'm sinless but I move forward with an acknowledgement that although my flesh is evil and deserving of eternal death, God is in the process of making me holy. When I am made aware of my sins, I confess them before God and ask Him to take them away, and He does! Like mada has said, I feel like I have nothing to lose. I personally can never UNbelieve in God. There have been far to many "coincidences" in my life that I see as answers to prayer. I sometimes get angry at Him because I feel like He has wronged me in some way, but I have lived long enough to realize that God sees the big picture and the events in my life that were painful or seemingly unfair ended up being one of the ways He was preparing me for something crucial in my future. I don't always like the way God does things, but I also believe that God's plan for my life is better than my own. The peace and joy that comes from submitting myself to Him and asking Him to guide my steps is far more satisfying than any self-gratification I derive from trying to make my own way. I have tried both.

I also wanted to make a comment on the conversation a little while back about how Christianity leaves out the Jewish people. Jesus Christ was a Jew. He was born and lived in Israel. Most of his initial followers were Jewish. He came proclaiming himself as the Jewish Messiah. A large part of the New Testament is discussing the mystery that his salvation also extends to the Gentiles. Jesus was for the Jews first, God did not forsake them. But a lot of them were not willing to accept Jesus for one reason or another and continued in their old ways. Similarly, today there are a lot of people who call themselves Christians but don't actually follow Christ. I'm not the judge of who that is but God looks at our hearts not how often we go or how much money we give to church.

mada124 said...

@Dee Well put. Trust me, I know God is good and looking out for our best interests, but its hard to explain that to people who cant see past whats seems like unjustified murder. Id urge them to read the whole chapter rather than a verse or 2.

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