11 August 2010

Jesus hates you. (So does Douglas Wilson.)

Douglas Wilson doesn't say much (out loud) anymore. But back in the day, before he became famous debating Christopher Hitchens, he used to say the darndest things.

Here, for example, is what he said in his pro-slavery booklet (co-authored in 1996 with Steve Wilkins), Southern Slavery as it Was:

[N]othing is clearer -- the New Testament opposes anything like the abolitionism of our countryprior to the War Between the States. The New Testament contains many instrucitons for Christian slave owners, and requires a respectful submissive demeanor for Christian slaves. See for example, Ephesians 6:5-9, Colossians 3:22-4:1, and 1 Timothy 6:1-5.

...

[I]n this booklet ... we will say (out loud) that a godly man could have been a slave owner. (emphasis in original)

In the last few years, though, Douglas hasn't said much (out loud or in print) about godly Christian slave owners or any of the other interesting things that he apparently still (quietly) believes.

Still, once in a while he slips up and the old Doug slips out.

The Bible teaches that God hates.
...
Not only that, but we cannot take refuge in that famous line about hating the sin but loving the sinner. This text says that God hates the people doing these things, and not just the things that are done.
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At the Day of Judgment, it will be the sinners that are pitched into Hell, not just their sins. The place where God has made it possible to distinguish sins and sinners is in the cross of Jesus Christ. Because of that, our sins can be taken away from us, and separated from us.
...
But this is not because God decided to stop hating sin. No, He hates sin so much that He poured out His wrath on it, even though the place where that wrath was located was in the person of His Son Jesus Christ. His act of love was also an act of hatred. So they are not opposites. The greatest act of love in the history of the human race was the death of Jesus. But at the same moment, in a different respect, the greatest act of divine hatred was also the cross of Jesus.

So Jesus hates you more than you will ever know. He hates you with the greatest hatred the world has ever known. He hates you even more than Douglas Wilson hates you.

If such a thing is possible, that is.

12 comments:

A Heathen with a Bible said...

Say what you will about fundamentalists, they certainly try hard to be logically consistent.

skanksta said...

@ Heathen..
They are actually MORE logically consistent with the text.

A lot of believers come on here - and they seem like very decent people - but they claim to follow the example of god in the bible when, (of course) they don't, because they would never do any of the barbaric things he does, or asks others to do.

I am the wise fool. said...

I am disgusted by his message, but I have to give him props for paying attention to what the Bible actually says and brazenly running with it.

Xaratherus said...

Better the open, visible hatred of the fundamentalist than the hidden, selective, hypocritical disdain of the "weekend Christian".

Patmos Pete said...

Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

D.O.K said...

Xaratherus said...
Better the open, visible hatred of the fundamentalist than the hidden, selective, hypocritical disdain of the "weekend Christian".

Are you saying they are the only 2 types of Christians that exist?

I'm a Christian - 7 days a week (nights too). Also not hateful.... or selective, hypocritical (I don't judge anyone on their actions, as i am not perfect) or hiding (I'm VERY proud of who I am in Christ).

You maybe want to go meet some Christians before you make a statement like that - its highly offensive.

That would be like me saying all unbelievers are evil sinners who don't know right from wrong!

Xaratherus said...

D.O.K said: "Are you saying they are the only 2 types of Christians that exist?

I'm a Christian - 7 days a week (nights too). Also not hateful.... or selective, hypocritical (I don't judge anyone on their actions, as i am not perfect) or hiding (I'm VERY proud of who I am in Christ).

You maybe want to go meet some Christians before you make a statement like that - its highly offensive.

That would be like me saying all unbelievers are evil sinners who don't know right from wrong!"

Way to miss the point.

There really ARE only two types of Christians in the world. There are those who follow the Bible, strictly, in every word - which is exactly what Douglas "I want slaves" Wilsom does - or there are those who cherry pick, and only follow those parts of the Bible that allow them to function in a non-Bronze Age society.

Are the latter (apparently you fall into that category) typically easier to deal with? Yes - except that there's no way to tell how one "weekend Christian"* is going to act compared to another, because they all pick which parts of the Bible they wish to follow.

When you're dealing with a fundamentalist like Wilson, you at least know what to expect: Bigotry and an attitude that's been out of date for nearly three millenia.

I'm well aware that there are tolerant, social, intelligent Christians out there. The only way they can be tolerant, social, and intelligent is to 'cherry pick' what parts of the Bible they follow, however.

*By the by, I use the term "weekend Christian" as a metaphor similar to the "weekend biker".

twillight said...

@Patmos Pete
Yep, more and more "Babylon"s are falling taking their religious wrath with them, their fornication with nonexistent gods (let them be male of female).
But I doubt I'll see the fall of the Vatikan-Babylon with my eyes. But maybe in some more hundred years it will go finally too. That'll be a big step for humanity.

@XD.O.K.
Exactly like Xaratherus says.

@Anyone interrested:
I'll finish the Quran in 30 days! Woah!

D.O.K said...

@ Xaratherus - I'll think what you will find, in the case of the second group of Christians you speak of, is that they have an understanding of Grace and what Jesus did on the cross that sets them free of the bounds of the law, as they see it was intended to be through Jesus Christ.

Its not about whether or not we choose to follow God's law, its about whether or not we accept the free gift of Grace - different Christians live under a different standard of Grace according to how they read the Word (not WHAT parts they read, but HOW they read it).

I choose to accept that my saviour died on the cross so i can live freely and lightly, and that is what i do. Does it mean i go out and do anything i like without thought for consequence? - NO, but not becuase i don't have freedom (because freedom is complete!), but because i don't feel the need to do things that don't line up with the character of Christ that i have inherited.

Jesus changed everything, so you can believe that we are cherry pickers, and that we just follow the "laws" that we choose to follow and neglect the rest, but for me, i know that "the law" was fulfilled for me by Christ, and i don't need to strive to fulfill it myself. Grace = UNMERITED favour!

D.O.K said...

Steve, one part of this post that warmed my christian little heart was your last line.

After speaking about how Jesus hates us more then we will ever know, you ended in "if such a thing is possible, that is"

It does so put a smile on my face to know that even in that argumentative little heart of yours (i was going to say "athiest" - but i don't think that's quite the case) even YOU know that it is quite IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to hate the people He once died for, or for God to hate His own creation.

I really feel like we are getting somewhere here buddy :)

Xaratherus said...

@D.O.K: "I'll think what you will find, in the case of the second group of Christians you speak of, is that they have an understanding of Grace and what Jesus did on the cross that sets them free of the bounds of the law, as they see it was intended to be through Jesus Christ. "

What I've found, actually, is that one Christian who has "an understanding of Grace" will tell me one thing, while another Christian who has "an understanding of Grace" will tell me something completely different.

Your statements simply reinforce my point. Christians (and many theists in general) show such arrogance. Without providing any sort of credible evidence, you claim that your way is the right way - yet those of the same supposed faith as you will act in a completely different manner, and claim things that contradict your words, and say that theirs is the right way.

"I choose to accept that my saviour died on the cross so i can live freely and lightly"

I live "freely and lightly" by accepting that my actions have consequence, and not relying on the external forgiveness of a non-existence 'sky daddy'. To each their own, I suppose - save that apparently you don't believe that, since according to the Bible, there's either "accept and worship" or "burn forever".

Nameless Cynic said...

Hatred. The one defining feature linking Catholics, Protestants and Muslims.

"If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be insane."
[Robert Green Ingersoll]