There shall come in the last days scoffers ... saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 2 Peter 3:3-4
Let me be the first to add my scoffing! I wished everyone at work today a "Happy Rapture!", and since I've been bringing them up to speed on this since last September, I got lots of yucks and big grins.However, there have been some disturbing reports in the news media about people who have stopped caring for their homes, saving for their kids' education or their own retirement.I'm interested to see how all the duped followers of Harold Camping readjust to their new post-"rapture" lives. This is the sort of thing that keeps social workers in business.See: http://www.latimes.com/la-me-rapture-20110521,0,1687317.storySteve, I love your suggestion about the clothes. I may just set up a couple scenarios.Steve Weeks
This is a tough day for Christians everywhere. Harold Camping has unwittingly called the bluff. It brought the whole rapture bullshit into the spotlight and it looks pretty ridiculous. I saw one guy being interviewed that had sold everything. Why? I put the word out to my Christian friends on facebook to take a minute and sign their savings over to me, but so far no takers. The only people I know that are willing to talk about this are skeptics. I am guessing it is hugely embarrassing to the faithful.
Dan, The rapture is a fairly new apostate Christian teaching introduced by Darby. Not all Christians, especially outside of the United States, adhere to the teaching.
Now that Camping has been revealed as a false prophet, and the bible in several books says that false prophets are to be killed, do you think any of these bible kooks will up and shoot Camping? Or maybe pelt him with stones so that he dies?
Daystar said: "The rapture is a fairly new apostate Christian teaching."Aren't all Christians apostates to you, Daystar? Unless, of course, they agree with you and the governing body of the Jehovah's Witnesses. But do they have to agree with you on everything? If they disagree that Jesus returned in 1914, for example, would that make them apostates? Or is the 1914 thing "a fairly new apostate Christian teaching?"It's hard to tell the apostates from the true believers. I guess you need a carefully calibrated apostate meter.
Anyone who adheres to the crap written in the Bible and builds his/her life around the idiotic principles of Christianity clearly has mental problems. A lot of them.It is only normal that such persons also believe earnestly in the Rapture and the End of Days. There is no need to make further fun of them. You would not, after all, laugh at other mentally handicapped people... at least hope not.
Steve, Apostasy is translated from the Greek apostasia which comes from the verb aphistemi. It literally means to "stand away from." It is, not just being wrong, it is a desertion, abandonment or rebellion. In the classical sense it referred to political defection, and the Septuagint used it in this sense at Genesis 14:4, but in the Christian Greek sense it is applied primarily in a religious sense. 99% of Christians believe in apostate teachings. These teachings are not just wrong or doubtful, they have origins in mythology which is counter to God’s word. The immortal soul, hell, trinity, the cross, Easter and Christmas for example. The rapture is just wrong, but those who believe in it also adhere to those pagan teachings. I don’t always agree with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, in fact, I couldn’t be a JW, or even an anabaptized publisher because they ask three basic questions which I couldn’t answer to their satisfaction. They only removed all of the pagan nonsense from their teachings so we are alike in that way. I don’t know why you are hung up on the 1914 thing Steve. I guess it is a JW issue for you. Neither the they or myself would consider disagreement with 1914 as apostate. I don’t even consider it relevant, but if you insist we can go toe to toe on that and you will lose. Let me know if that is what you want to do and I will waste my time with it just for fun.
I want to see you "go toe-to-toe" !
OK, now we're getting somewhere, Daystar!Now we know that 99% of Christians are apostates. Still, since there are only 6 million or so JWs, that accounts for only 0.3% of the 2 billion Christians. Are there any other non-apostate Christians besides you and the JWs?You say that the 1914 second coming of Jesus isn't relevant. Seem like it'd be kind of an important thing, if true. Almost as important as celebrating Mother's Day or (Jehovah forbid!) birthdays.And what's this about JWs being allowed to question Jesus' 1914 return? Any JW that publicly questioned the governing body's teaching on that (or pretty much anything else) would be disfellowshipped. You're not applying the Theocratic War Strategy on me here, are you Daystar?You say, "if you insist we can go toe to toe on that and you will lose."OK, Daystar, that sounds like fun! Of course, I have nothing to say, no toe to smash, so to speak. You are the one that believes that Jesus returned in 1914. Now all you have to do is tell us why.I'd wear some steel-toed boots if I were you.
I agree with the idea shared by others earlier that maybe Christians should cease making testable claims? It's just not their strong suit. Priests and pastors and Christian teachers are much better spending their time rattling off Scripture quotes and then interpreting them for application ineveryday 21st century American life with all of its "trials and tribulations" (which compared to the rest of the planet aren't tribulations at all). "Let us pray for a mortgage modification and a positive tax return." I mean, that kind of stuff they're good at. The end of the world is way to complicated for them, and to think it started with failing to understand the curvature of the earth, international date lines and timezones, etc.We shouldn't forget that Harold Camping said there was "no doubt at all" and that it was "most certainly going to end on May 21".Since this is the USA, I sense multiple fraud lawsuits in his future. As for what is to be destroyed by October 21, perhaps it isn't the world after all, but rather Mr. Camping's own church and FamilyRadio organization? It would be only fitting.
Wait a minute... Daystar is a Jojoba's Witless? How 'bout those blood transfusions? I thank my stars that there aren't any of those around where I live now; in a town I lived in 20 years ago, they'd come knocking, usually with a child. The kid always looked embarrassed, which kept me from unloading a heap of scoffing.Steve Weeks***Steve, sorry if this is a duplicate. We had a lightning strike and power failure just as I pressed the "Publish" button. Late Rapture?***
Markus, You are an atheist without a clue and that is not at all unique. Stephen, No. I'm not, nor have I ever been, or ever will be a JW.
Daniel 9:25 said it would be 69 "weeks" from the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the coming of the Messiah. 69 weeks amounts to 483 days. If you apply a day for a year as in Numbers 14:34 it would be 483 years. The command to rebuild Jerusalem was given, by Artaxerxes, in 455 B.C.E. (Nehemiah 2:1-8 and exactly 483 years later Jesus, anointed with the holy spirit, was baptized by John thus becoming the Messiah. (Luke 3:1-2, 21-23) The 20th year of Artaxerxes reign can be ascertained by the death of his father and predecessor Xerxes in 475 B.C.E. and so Artaxerxes’ first regnal year would be 474, which is historically accepted. The 20th year would be 455 B.C.E.At Daniel 4:10-37 a giant tree represents King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. At that time he was the most powerful human ruler. The nation of Israel was set up by Jehovah God, and was an earthly representation of Jehovah's rule. The kings of Judah were said to "sit upon Jehovah's throne." (1 Chronicles 29:23)Jehovah’s rule was demonstrated to Nebuchadnezzar by the tree in his dream, which was cut down, symbolizing Nebuchadnezzar’s downfall. The stump of the tree was banded, preventing it from growing until the bands were removed. It also symbolized the end of the Judean line of Kings which had been Jehovah’s earthly representation in 607 B.C.E. when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem. This began a period of time which Jesus would refer to as the "appointed time of the nations" or "gentiles." (Luke 21:24)This would be a time when Jehovah God would have no earthly representative, no king - Zedekiah was the last, until the one who had the legal right to the throne as a representative of Jehovah God's Kingdom, Jesus Christ, would come. (Ezekiel 21:25-27)Daniel 4:16 says this period of time would be "seven times." In Revelation 12:6, 14 it is seen that 1,260 days are equal to three and a half times. So a single time is equal to 360 days. Seven times, then, would be 2,520 days. Again, as above, a day for a year is applied (Numbers 14:34) and so, from 607 B.C.E. 2,520 years brings us to 1914. The year we can assume that Jesus began to rule.
OK, you're right, Daystar. It's perfectly obvious now. Jesus returned in 1914 and began to rule, which explains why everything has been so great since then.69 weeks; a day for a year; seven times; 1260 days; a time, and times, and half a time; 2520 days; 607 BCE. It all adds up. The JWs are right. How could people not see?Anyone who can't see this (that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914) deserves to be viciously destroyed by Jehovah God at Armageddon -- which will happen, of course, within the life of the generation that witnessed the 1914 non-event. That's quite a toe-smashing story you've got there, Daystar!
would be 474, which is historically accepted. The 20th year would be 455 B.C.E.It’s also historically accepted in the majority of legitimate encyclopedias, and accredited universities (supported by reams of historical evidence) that Jerusalem fell @ 586 B.C.http://www.bu.edu/mzank/Jerusalem/p/period2-2-1.htmLet the lame rationalizations fly…………
Dan said:"This is a tough day for Christians everywhere"Well, I am a Christian and I've been mocking Harold Camping's "prophecy" from the beginning. I also don't believe in a rapture. You really shouldn't identify all Christians' beliefs with those of Harold's congregation, since as I know most of denominations disagree with predicting a date of the end of the world.Bible many times clearly states, that nobody knows a date of the end (even Jesus didn't know), so I don't really know how did it happen that Harold predicted a date from the Bible :-) A sad thing is that after such "excesses" some people discredit the Bible, in spite of the fact that it hasn't ever told a date of the end of the world.Please, visit my blog: objectivelyannotatedbible.blogspot.com for some information, which could be interesting for you.
PS, you say you don't believe in the rapture and that you (like Jesus and the angels, unlike Jesus' dad, Daystar, and Harold Camping) don't know when Jesus will return. But you do think he'll return someday, don't you? ("Come Lord Jesus!" and all that.)If so, what will happen when he sneaks back like a thief in the night? Will he cut people to pieces as he said he would in Matthew 24:51?
Here is a short video about Daystar's 607 BCE / 1914 Jesus' return thing.
O!I think the rationalizations have flown, you read in a book that Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 rather than 607 B.C.E. so it must be true. Those silly Jewish historians that wrote the Bible knew nothing of Jerusalem. But why, O! Why does secular history say that it was 586? Two not so good reasons. The Ptolemy’s Cannon and the VAT 4956. Bet you didn’t know that, did you. You just read that they said it was 586 so it must have been 586. Here is the problem with Ptolemy’s Cannon and the VAT 4956. Ptolemy's canon gives 87 years to the Babylonian dynasty. Nabopolassar 21 years, Nebuchadnezzar 43 years, Evil-merodach 2 years, Neriglissar 4 years, and Nabonidus 17 years. Nebuchadnezzar's eighteenth year (or nineteenth accession year) would have been 586, however, Ptolemy's canon was prepared for astronomical rather than historical purpose. It gives neither a complete list of rulers of Babylon or Persia nor exact date of rule. Kings whose reigns were less than a year or didn't embrace the New Year's day were omitted. Ptolemy has Evil-merodach with only two years rule while Polyhistor has him with 12 years. Ptolemy has only fife kings whereas a list found at Borsippa had a much longer list. As Neugebauer and Weidner, who translated the VAT 4956 pointed out, the scribe simply changed words to conform to the abbreviated terminology common in his day, from the same source as Ptolemy. They share the same errors. Attempts to support the accuracy of these questionable histories suggest that the 70 years of desolation were not 70 literal years, but as Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, Book X, chap. 9, par. 7 point out "all Judea and Jerusalem, and the temple, continued to be a desert for seventy years."You didn’t think secular history worked like that, did you? You didn’t realize the Bible is a far more accurate and reliable history, did you?
Steve, you wrote:PS, you say you don't believe in the rapture and...Are the letters "PS" my i.e. Paweł Szulik's initials or do they mean Post Scriptum and apply to your previous debate with Daystar? Maybe it's a stupid question, but please make it clear, because I don't want to answer whilst I am not asked to.
dhenson2011,What's with the sockpuppet thing, Daystar?I guess you're like the unclean spirit in Mark 5:9. Your name is legion.
The Blog signs me in according to what Google account I happen to be on, so if I go to my Google webmasters tools I have to sign in as dhenson, if I go to my email I may sign in as Pathway Machine, and if I sign in directly here the blog only allows me to sign in as Daystar. I have verified my PM account with the blog which seems to be having some difficulty, so I will try and make sure I'm signed in as PM.
Yes, Pawell Szulik, my PS refers to you. I was mostly just being lazy, I guess. But I often abbreviate names when they are difficult for me to spell or remember.
dhenson,…you read in a book that Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 rather than 607 B.C.E. so it must be true…Fallacious argument. You got your information from a book too. You didn’t think secular history worked like that, did you? You didn’t realize the Bible is a far more accurate and reliable history, did youI’ll stick to the general consensus and the secular historians like the ones at -- the positively inept—(sarcasm) Boston University – which I provided a link for, above. What’s your credible source? You can stick to your historical book of fantasy, where men walk on water and fly, seas can be magically split, serpents and donkeys can talk, and a Jewish prophet can be resurrected, good as new, after being dead and buried for three days. I also found this link revealing. http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/607-1914.php
O!I myself have just pointed out the unreliability of your source, no matter who it is. You, on the other hand, can't do that with mine because mine is far superior.
I myself have just pointed out the unreliability of your source, no matter who it is. You, on the other hand, can't do that with mine because mine is far superior.So you say.Yep, you shared your information and I shared mine – what was your source again?And did you go to the last link I provided?
Paweł Szulik said...Dan said:"This is a tough day for Christians everywhere"Well, I am a Christian and I've been mocking Harold Camping's "prophecy" from the beginning. I also don't believe in a rapture. You really shouldn't identify all Christians' beliefs with those of Harold's congregation, since as I know most of denominations disagree with predicting a date of the end of the world.Bible many times clearly states, that nobody knows a date of the end (even Jesus didn't know), so I don't really know how did it happen that Harold predicted a date from the Bible :-) A sad thing is that after such "excesses" some people discredit the Bible, in spite of the fact that it hasn't ever told a date of the end of the world.I also pointed out the following:“It brought the whole rapture bullshit into the spotlight and it looks pretty ridiculous.”Do you think it matters what you call the end of the world? The fact that it is justifiable to you because the scripture states that no man knows the hour shows me how far you have thought this through. Let me put it a different way. You mock Camping on two technicalities (what to call it and that no one knows) Otherwise you accept it because an ancient writer got it in his head to do a Tolkein event and call it holy.I think the question about verifiable events is legit. To outsiders like myself it appears that Jesus teaches mercy as a way of life but in (potential) real life situations he becomes a killing machine. The great flood and the tribulation are perfect examples. It is like playing hide and seek with a child and when he finally finds you, you kill him. If that sounds harsh it’s because the message of these events is beyond anything Stalin or Hitler could have dreamed of. It is the annihilation of the human race for not agreeing with him. And when the event verifies that he is real it is too late everyone gets murdered. To Bad.
Here’s a photo comic that perfectly illustrates what‘s being said by the reasonable people of this forum. rapture comic
O!No, I didn't read the link, did you? I'm afraid I don't have time to read every link given me as an argument, but if you would like to go over it here that would be okay.
No, I didn't read the linkOf course not…………....did you?Yes, I did.I'm afraid I don't have time to read every link given me as an argument,Evidently, your information is far too superior to waste your precious time reading a link – yet you expect us to read your link in this postHmmmmmmm, does anyone else wonder why Path’s superior information hasn’t buckled the knees of secular historians and penetrated the legitimate encyclopedias and credited universities around the world?I know Path will rationalize that secular historians are trying to protect their feeble understanding of history but it’s abundantly clear; path can’t penetrate the deep dark fog of religion as well as his superiority complex to even begin to realize he’s too deluded to recognize he’s living in a fantasy world – all the while clamoring on ”my info is more superior then yours”. What was your source again?
Wise move, O!If you can't think for yourself it doesn't matter who your source is and its best to keep somewhat quiet. Speaking of secular histories and fantasy worlds, though, how many secular historical records are there of Jesus Christ and how many of them are reliable?Makes you wonder, doesn't it?How, do you think, Boston, the extant MSS of Caesar's Gallic War, the histories of Tacitus, Thucydides and Herodotus compare to the Bible? Heres a hint. They don't.
Curious as to why you’re keeping quiet about your source………Notice Path’s tactic: diverge by opening a can of supposed historical worms, thereby relegating his source to the back of the room. Not to mention, turning a blind eye to the link I provided.What’s your source again?
O!Considering my adverse objection to the opiate of the masses which is ignorance in its many forms, accepted with great fanfare and little objection let us now reveal my source. It is none other than the great Patrick. Patrick from the Spongebobsuarepance episodes. So. Lets you and your Bostonian guise for intellectualism . . . treading upon the thin ice of the aforementioned superiority . . . take a close look at your fucking link, since you hadn't the sense to do. Let Patrick show you the way which is not the way you can see. In other words, notwithstanding your ignorance . . . lets fuck your source. You and I. Still, if it isn't entirely clear, lets look at your link.
PathYikes!Not only are you delusional, you’re also bipolar.Something strike a nerve?Your reluctance to supply your source speaks volumes.I grow tired of your evasiveness.By all means have the last word; stoke your superiority complex.You really have nothing to offer but morbid delusion.I will not be back to read your latest ramblings.You’re a pathetic lunatic
Oooooo!There’s the diagnosis! Any correspondence with idiot atheists always culminates in a medical diagnosis. Having worked in the pharmaceutical market I can safely say that the atheists are proud members of family planning as well as lots of drugs for lots of money for lots of kids and the elderly and anyone else that is annoying and needs to be snuffed out or can be bereaved of a profit.That wouldn’t be your pretense in the world view, would it?! Oh, heavens no!I’ll take your bi-polar disease and raise you an abortion, ignorant (husband of a bitch schoolteacher).Did you know that, in addition to burning, or crushing the skull of a growing baby the filthy stinking fucked up cocksuckers that call themselves atheists also have cornered the market on drugs to do whatever they want, which is to dumb down the masses and goddamn the pusher man? No matter. It wasn't a leap of the purist optimism that pushed your ignorant ass out of my way, it was an offer of, uh, the obvious. This may cause seizures, abdominal pain, and blindness. Atheism. You are just going to have to live with that. Now. That Jehovah God claimed, in a sense, the Witchtower as an exclusive representative of his earthly . . . representation . . . is pure nonsense. With this I agree. Though the Bostonians don't supply any real solid scriptural references to that effect isn't in itself surprising, because they are idiots, I know because I have worked with them in some sense, but hell, Stevie didn't know that. It doesn't matter. With them on this point I agree. It is pretty obvious. When people start claiming God is directing them in a post Christian sense it is time to get off the circuit and open up the wallets of the idiots. Invest in real estate, make stupid claims that doesn't matter if Steve Wells or Kent Steinhaug has no effect upon outside of the lawyers. Doesn't matter. With this I agree.
Pathway Machine,Getting a bit lost here, are you?Your response goes a long way to prove the fact that anyone living his/her life in accordance with a work of fiction is insane. Read your last post, man. It reeks of insanity.Never mind your delusion that god exists, or belief in the Bible crap. Surely you can see how a mentally healthy individual would never write that?
"Any correspondence with idiot atheists always culminates in a medical diagnosis"Why does this remind me of that silly old joke "I've slept with hundreds of [men | women] and they were all LOUSY in bed."To which the meek rejoinder is "Maybe it's you?"
Pathway Machine said:"Did you know that, in addition to burning, or crushing the skull of a growing baby the filthy stinking fucked up cocksuckers that call themselves atheists also have cornered the market on drugs to do whatever they want, which is to dumb down the masses and goddamn the pusher man?"Seriously, you need to get back on your meds, my friend. I call myself an atheist, and none of this hyperbole applies to me or any of my atheist friends. What's more, I'll bet I'm happier than you are by just about any yardstick you could imagine. Nice reference to Steppenwolf, though. :-)Steve Weeks
As an addendum to the whole "rapture" failure, I never did get the "Family Radio" rapture predicting bumper stickers I requested before the judgement. :-(But I recently received a personal letter from Harold Camping! He wants to be my friend! And he needs money... :-/Steve Weeks
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