I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me. Proverbs 1:26-28
It's time for us all to send a message to God.
(I guess he didn't get the last one.)
26 comments:
It beggars belief that you've sunk low enough to use a disaster such as that which we're witnessing on our TV screens to take a swipe at God. Nor that you've taken a passage talking to those who do not seek wisdom and applied it, randomly, to the victims of this catastrophe. You're lack of respect and sensitivity is astounding.
So I lack respect and sensitivity, eh Matt? But I didn't say it, God did.
He says he'll laugh and mock those who suffer, and then refuse to help them when they ask.
Oh, but God was only talking about "those who do not seek wisdom and apply it." It's OK for God to laugh at them when they suffer. Is that what you're saying, Matt?
In your profile Matt, you are first and foremost a Christian. While Christians around the world are mobilizing their resources to come to the aid of those that are in harms way, you are on a skeptics website? Hmm... If I were in your shoes I would be sending money to one of the Christian organizations that have a presence in Japan or headed over there to help out. Anything else is hypocritical. Your mission statement as a Christian is to help the poor and suffering not argue with skeptics. However, if you want to argue, answer a few of my questions.
1. When a disaster like this occurs, where is God? I had friends that thought he helped them find parking spaces and lost keys. Surely there were a few of the righteous among the pagans that should have been saved. While God was mocking the unbelievers (as per the verse) why wasn’t he saving a few kids?
2. If God was working another part of the Universe maybe he could have sent one of his vast legions of Angels? I don’t mean any disrespect by this. It just seems odd to me that Angels are known to wipe out whole armies and sing at special events, but can’t show up to help out at a disaster.
3. During a natural disaster it is an especially good time to question God. Do we have a Father that looks out for us during these times? Do we have a Brother that helps us deal with the sadness? I think you know my answer as a skeptic, but I am interested in hearing yours.
And this absolutly not acceptable religion will be statereligion in Hungary from april.
Fat chance anyone can do against it, but I'll try all forums. First within the country, and if no success, then internatianlly.
Damn, I thought I'll never need a lawyer.
When kids send a message to Santa Claus in Canada at least they get a reply from some retired post office worker pretending to be Santa but sending a message to God I mean... have we exausted all other serious options like writing to the Tooth Fairy or the Fantastic 4 for help ?
LucifeR_C
@polardan
I looked at this website around 36 hours after the tsunami struck. Here's me thinking it takes about five minutes to send money to charity.
Jesus and Paul both very clearly defend the faith and the correct application of Scripture in the Bible. That's as much a part of the mission statement as helping the poor and suffering and, if you believe in the Biblical message, even more important as it has eternal consequences, rather than temporal ones.
@ Steve Wells
Let me repeat myself: God didn't say, as you suggest, the words you quote to tsunami victims. You're application is unacademic, unfair and deliberately inflammatory and takes advantage of suffering on an enormous scale in an attempt to score a cheap point against Christianity. At the end of the day, only those who already agree with you are going to be impressed by such games. Come on, you can make intelligent comments, why sink to this?
As for the other comments, you've no intention of a reasonable discussion, so I won't indulge.
For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
-Matthew 17:20
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
-Matthew 21:21
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
-Mark 11:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.
-John 14:12
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
-Matthew 18:19
Since nothing is "impossible" to a true beleiver and there are more than a billion christians out there, I must say that I yet have to be impressed by the prowess of at least one person who is able to surpass their master. If anyone can turn the water into gold in Japan for their reconstruction or even move some mountains to prevent the next tsunami then now is the time: please just do it, all unsaved folks around the world are watching.
But to be fair I must say that I am sure millions of them will reach in their pocket and do the "possible" like us common man will do.
LucifeR_C
This is a horrible tragedy, I feel bad for the people who lost families and loved ones. I cannot go over there and help so I did the next best thing I could think of I donated to save the children fed.
Every little bit helps, please donate to help those affected people but do not do it just to score brownie points with false absent gods.
Mr. Wells is right the cruel god of the christian did say that and yes he was talking about non-believers desrving the punishments he gives. thats his mercy for ya......
But you cannot thank or blame a being that does not exists. Beliefs in supernatural gods in general are nothing more than a coping tool for the people who have no control over the powers of nature and do not want to face the facts of the world. So they run from the facts and hide in their beliefs, similar to how ostriches bury their heads in sand.
god says that prayers can help those in need "ask and thou shalt receive". If prayers really worked then humanity would not need doctors and hospitals, now would we? No, its people and actions that help those in need prayers to false gods have nothing to do with it.
god claims to be a perfect, merciful, and loving father.
A real loving father with the power to do anything would have shown mercy and done all he can to stop the event in the first place to save his children(even if its his fault) but as far as I can tell, nothing could have stopped the disaster and its people helping people, not false gods with false promises.
"Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god?"
- Epicurus <=== Pretty smart guy, he did not buy the BS.
There is no magical sky daddy up there, if he was I think NASA would have seen him by now, I mean the bible says he has a physical body, right? 0.0
Well, if we will not help ourselves in times of crisis then who will? Certainly not jesus or god (kinda the same person).
Please for goodness sake stop believing false gods and do something that can really be of some help, god cannot help people but you can. Donations go a long way so please consider it.
Thanks for reading! :)
@ Matt,
You say that Proverbs 1:26-28 doesn't apply to tsunami victims, and that my "application [of these verses] is unacademic, unfair and deliberately inflammatory."
And, OK, you're right about the last one. It was deliberately inflammatory. I get that way sometimes.
But how was it unacademic or unfair? Perhaps you can help me be more academic and fair by answering these questions about Proverbs 1:26-28.
I'll start by quoting them again, just to be academic and fair about it.
"I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me." Proverbs 1:26-28
Who is talking here, Matt? Who is it that will laugh at people's calamity and mock them when fear, desolation, and destruction come upon them? Who will ignore them when they ask him for help?
And who are the people who are being addressed in these verses? The people who are suffering, being mocked, laughed at, and ignored?
Why are they being treated this way? What did they do to deserve it?
I await your ever so academic and fair response.
@ Steve Wells
You're not an idiot. You're quite capable of reading and understanding verses 20-22.
But then again, maybe you're not. The idea behind the passage is that people get into the mess because they're own foolish has led them there because they've rejected wisdom. That is why this can't apply to tsunami victims. Unless you wish to blame them for living in an area where earthquakes are common.
So you're not going to answer my questions, eh Matt. I understand. Proverbs 1:26-28 is embarrassing to you.
God laughs and mocks while people suffer from disasters that he caused. And then he refuses to help when they ask. What a guy!
Steve, are you really unable to read or are you just pretending to be a bit dim?
i. God is speaking.
ii. He's speaking to those who have rejected wisdom and embrace they're foolishness.
iii. They deserve to be treated that way because they've already rejected his help ("the fool says in his heart 'there is no God'" - Proverbs 14:1-3). The suggestion is that
Ever laughed at someone who won a Darwin award? That's what God's doing here.
Soooo,
If you "reject widsdom" (treat this god as false like all the others like the Japanese)
then you DESERVE it ?!
@Matt,
Steve, are you really unable to read or are you just pretending to be a bit dim?
Oh, goodie. The name-calling begins. How fair and academic of you!
God is speaking.
Really? He said this: "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh ... when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me."
That's quite a God you've got there, Matt!
He's speaking to those who have rejected wisdom and embrace they're foolishness.
Oh, then that makes it OK. It's good to laugh and mock people when calamity strikes, as long they're fools. Then it's just good fun!
They deserve to be treated that way because they've already rejected his help ("the fool says in his heart 'there is no God'" - Proverbs 14:1-3).
Now you're talking, Matt. If people don't believe in God then God will laugh at them when they suffer horrible catastrophes. (How many Japanese are atheists, I wonder.)
I guess I'm just not fair and academic enough to appreciate the goodness of God's savagery.
Now you're not answering my question: ever laughed at someone who's won a Darwin award?
Technically speaking, it is the feminine figure of "Wisdom" who is speaking in these verses, though there are interesting theological questions about the relation between the figure of Lady Wisdom in Proverbs and God. It's part of a speech which runs from 1:20 to 1:33, and so the "I" in these verses refers back to "Wisdom" crying aloud in verse 20. So this is Lady Wisdom saying that she will laugh at those who reject her and so suffer calamity. It's not saying that everyone who suffers calamity has rejected wisdom or that Wisdom laughs at everyone who suffers calamity. This does seem to be a point-scoring misapplication of these verses.
@Matt,
Now you're not answering my question: ever laughed at someone who's won a Darwin award?
No, I'm not a big fan of the Darwin Awards. I think it is wrong to laugh at stupid people. People are stupid (or smart) because their heredity and environment made them that way.
It is wrong to laugh when people suffer, to mock them and refuse to help them when they ask. It is wrong whether they are stupid or smart, believers or skeptics.
David has picked up on an interesting point here. We've gone along assuming that Wisdom is supposed to be a literary device for God's own expression when there's no evidence of that at all. Folly indeed!
@David,
So do you think God disagrees with Lady Wisdom, here? I mean, it is his book, right? Would he and Wisdom sit back and laugh at the suffering people? Or do you think God lacks the wisdom to have a good laugh while stupid people suffer?
It was perhaps a pedantic point to observe that the "I" refers to Wisdom rather than to God directly, as I think Wisdom is pretty closely identified with God in Proverbs. However, I don't think "the suffering people" here is intended to include all people who suffer, and so I still think that this is a misapplication of the passage. I think the laughing might be more an emphatic underlining of the folly of rejecting wisdom than an indication that God or Wisdom actively enjoy people suffering.
@David,
OK. So you think the "Wisdom" in Proverbs is an alias for God.
So we're back to God saying this:
"I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh ... when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me." Proverbs 1:26-28
God will laugh at and mock people when they are afraid and in anguish; he will refuse to help them when they ask; and when they seek him they won't find him.
Who do you think the "they" are in this passage?
"They" = "scorners/scoffers" who "hate knowledge" (verse 22), refuse to listen (verse 24) and "set at nought" all the counsel of wisdom (verse 25).
Oh, thanks David. Now I understand.
The "they" are atheists (scorners/scoffers"), Christians, Muslims, and other believers (who "hate knowledge"), and Republicans (who "set at nought" all the counsel of wisdom).
That makes sense. I see why God would laugh and mock those people when they are in agonizing torment.
But then why did he pick on the Japanese? Was it because there were so many atheists there?
So Lady Wisdom is telling us that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and if you don't fear him then those request that you will adress him when you're in trouble well it just ain't gonna happen and he'll be laughing at you while you wade in misery.
Good deal here since we already know that prayers are not answered anyway so why bother fearing Godzilla... eh I mean God ?
Japanease people, being valiant and wise, already know that two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer.
LucifeR_C
Truth be told, there are very few Japanese "atheists" as we understand the word here in the west. The word "religion" didn't even enter into the language until contact with Christianity.
Look, let's be perfectly clear here, a pragmatist is NEVER going to convince people of blind faith that their 'beliefs' since childhood are false. It's just too painful a reality.
I came from a Jewish family but rejected the premise that Jews were the "Chosen People" and thence rejected the concept of God. Why would God choose one people over another? What rot!
No one, and I mean no one, has ever shown me one smidgen of EVIDENCE for the existence of a personal god. And I do have an open mind and love surprises.
As I see it,the Bible was written by dozens - maybe more - people over a very long time. There are some good nuggets of ethical behavior it it. But for me, God is that entity to whom we ascribe explanation for every mystery we have yet to understand in the absence of evidence. That's it.
God has a pretty good deal: When things go right for us (like making a touchdown, or 'winning' at nearly anything) God gets the credit. Bravo. And when things go wrong, God never gets the blame. Helluva deal!
Be a Humanist and do good for goodness sake.
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