18 September 2006

Holy War and the Holy Father: the Bible vs the Quran

Believers ... shall slay and be slain. It is a promise ... in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. -- Quran 9:111
Pope Benedict should have known better. When it comes to holy war and other "evil and inhuman" things, the Bible and the Quran are pretty evenly matched.

Here are some evil and inhuman holy war instructions from the Quran.

  1. Slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out ... if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 2:191
  2. Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you. 2:216
  3. Fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward. 4:74
  4. Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76
  5. They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them. 4:89
  6. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant. 4:91
  7. The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom. 5:33
  8. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. 8:12
  9. When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end. Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw. 8:15-17
  10. And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. 8:59-60
  11. Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. 8:65
  12. It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. 8:67
  13. Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. 9:5
  14. If they ... assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief ... Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them. 9:12-14
  15. O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. 9:73
  16. Believers ... shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. 9:111
  17. O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you. 9:123
  18. Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks. 47:4
And here are some from the Bible.
  1. The Lord is a man of war. Exodus 15:3

  2. The LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation. Exodus 17:16, Deuteronomy 25:19
  3. And the LORD said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people ... So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land. Numbers 21:34-35
  4. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites ... And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones ... And they burnt all their cities....

    And Moses was wroth with the officers ... And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Numbers 31:1-18

  5. And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain: Deuteronomy 2:33-34
  6. And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them. Deuteronomy 7:2, 7:16
  7. If thou shalt hear say ... Certain men ... saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known ... Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:12-15
  8. When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it ... And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women ... shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. ... But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them ... as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Deuteronomy 20:10-17
  9. And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21
  10. So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40
  11. For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses. Joshua 11:20
  12. Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3

  13. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Psalm 2:8-9

  14. He teacheth my hands to war. Psalm 18:34

  15. That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same. Psalm 68:23

  16. Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1
  17. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34
  18. He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

So which holy book wins the Pope's holy war contest? I guess it depends on who is keeping score.

34 comments:

beepbeepitsme said...

Great post.

Have you seen this?

RE : The Exodus
Atheist On The Bible Part2: Moses
http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/2006/09/atheist-on-bible-part2-moses.html

jake3988 said...

There's a movie on Atheist On the Bible. (And its sequal, which is what you have pointed out). Pretty good, but nitpicking genesis is a lot better.


Anyway, Joshua 11:20 is one of those verses I just HATE. It truely shows what a cruel deity the christian god is.

Anonymous said...

For the record...

"Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you."

...is incompatible with fascism, which treats war as a glorious activity, not a necessary evil. Taken sincerely, "Islamo-fascist" is a contradiction in terms. (Among their other faults.)

BTW, this is my first visit here; I went to SAB regularly back before blogs were invented.

Fred Ludd said...

Comparing the sanity of Christians against that of Moslems, based on religious texts alone, is always going to give the Christians the edge simply because Islam accepts Jesus as an important prophet: i.e., the Christian Gospels are part of Islamic religious heritage, but they've topped it off with even more foolishness. Doesn't mean much, though. It's like the difference between hallucinating pink elephants and hallucinating plaid elephants.

dynabaul said...

It seems to me the Bible is talking more about war and evil that has happened. It's telling you about evil things were done. Where the Quran is telling you when and why you are to commit evil. It's telling you to go and kill and do evil and for what reasons to do so.

Anonymous said...

Sigh.

Please take the time to read to what the Pope *actually said*, not what people are saying he said.

The Pope quoted from a centuries-old dialog to prove the point that faith without reason is destructive. The inflammatory quote is plucked from that dialog.

However, you're right about the Bible having parts where the Israelites are commanded to commit genocide. It's frightening how the church kind of glosses over these parts.

Anonymous said...

This is silly. No one is arguing the OT isnt violent. I think its important to point out that Christainity is based on the New Testement, in which Jesus said "FORGET ALL THAT OT BS....DIS IS THE NEW STYLE."

Also...the qoutes from the OT are directed at a certain enemy. From what I have read in the Quran...it kill the non beleivers from page 1.

Anonymous said...

Actually more from page 2. Page 1 just sets up the fires.

Anonymous said...

Religious skeptics who wish to condemn religions because of the historical propensity of their adherents to engage in war and/or genocide would do well to consider that tens of millions more human beings were killed in wars and through the genocide and democide of atheistic and secular ideologies growing out of the so-called Enlightenment that found root in the French Revolution, Weimar Germany (WWI), Nazism/Fascism (WWII & Holocost), Soviet Union (Marxist-Leninism) and Communist China (Moaist-Marxism), Po Pot's Cambodia, etc.

jake3988 said...

"FORGET ALL THAT OT BS....DIS IS THE NEW STYLE."

Obviously you never read the bible then, mr. anonymous. Because Jesus never once says that.

In fact, he says this:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

This is just one of a few times he says this. He even critizes the pharisees for not murdering their disobidient children from the law of the OT.

Anonymous said...

Look, here's the difference:

the Bible speaks of waging war against evil on the whole--all the misfortune that had befallen people have arisen due to their acts of evil,
whereas the Quran seems to me, to speak of 'punishing' or killing disbelievers, people who simply do NOT suscribe to their religion, as opposed to 'punishing' acts of evil per se.

raf said...

it's still surprising to notice that, despite demonstrations through the texts, some people keep on refusing to admit that both religions are violent and encourage murder against sinners and disbelievers, men or women or "little ones."
Oh and by the way I think that there was a religious aspect to the Holocaust thing (maybe this idea comes frome the fact that 6 millions Jews were slaughtered...)

sublimereason.com said...

"This is silly. No one is arguing the OT isnt violent. I think its important to point out that Christainity is based on the New Testement, in which Jesus said "FORGET ALL THAT OT BS....DIS IS THE NEW STYLE."

Also...the qoutes from the OT are directed at a certain enemy. From what I have read in the Quran...it kill the non beleivers from page 1."

Apparently, you have not read the NT (Jesus explicitly declares himself the messiah prophesized in the OT and who has come to fulfill the legacy of the OT) and you have not read the Koran. It is not kill the disbelievers from page 1. You are simply repeating what you've probably heard. So before making a comment make sure you have actually read what you are talking about. Both religions are extremely violent, but if people decide to follow them indicates that they have more to offer. Anyways if we base both religions' violence purely on bodycount, Christianity kicks Islam's ass by a lot (and by a lot I mean millions).

cheers,
www.sublimereason.com

JeffXL said...

Ah, another dishonest believer. Hitler was a Christian, as were his willing executioners... as well as the clergy of all the franchises.

What was bad about Weimar? Oh, and while religionists have killed and tortured in the name of God, no one has done so in the name of atheism. For the State, for whatever ideology, ad nauseum, it has happened.

Stop lying!

Anonymous said...

Lost in history and detail, and no essence of ideals...

That will just blind you to repeat the mistakes of the past.

"Love thy enemy"
- Something to do

"Live by the sword, die by the sword"
- Something to avoid

I suppose, based on his New Testament interpretations, the writer of the "Holy War and the Holy Father: the Bible vs the Quran" Would probably believe that the "Legion of Mary" is a Christian military group...

Living a Christian life has always been refered to as a battle, and a fight, with weapons and devices to use to our advantage (prayers, devotions, angels, saints, etc..); because we are always battling our fallen nature/vices and tendancy to get lost in destructive habits and ideals.

The cross, which is taken up by Christ, is his burden, his sacrafice for us. So, as Christians , we are asked to follow that ideal in our lives and do the same, and to fight the temptations to lie down and give up, to accept less is to give in to the devil (explains Jesus's references to Peter as the devil when he tries to talk Jesus out of it). Its always a fight, life is always a struggle, which is why personal responsibility and looking after others is taught by the Church and is the hardest thing to do...

Convieniently most of the time, the hardest thing to do, is the right thing to do.

Anonymous said...

Btw about the video:

vi·o·lence

- Physical force exerted for the purpose of violating, damaging, or abusing: crimes of violence.

- Abusive or unjust exercise of power.



Now lets look at this and think, since God created everything, surely only he has the just right to take away (Aka end-of the world/apocalypse)?

The person's understandably human perception of violence is just that, a human perception of a wrong act, an act which humans have no right to do, and tries to replace God with a human being.

Only God has ever had the right to take or end life, and that is why we are so naturally against killing and murder, it goes against what we expect to be right, which has been implanted into our concience by God. Which also eludes to the natural inclination, that we should live to serve God, not just ourselves, because it is right to do so and is nessesary for a full human existance (happyness).

How can God damage, violate and abuse something that only exists because he is here to let it be so?

We can't suppose to deny his right, just because we try to judge his actions based on our primitive ways of thinking and levels of living. We are created in the image, but are not gods, we are just dust and ash.

So, the Pope is not wrong in saying that, nor is anyone else who shares that ideal.

The maker of that video thinks that apathy and lack of caring is what will save the world, when it will just do the opposite, and you will notice; as the world becomes more obsessed with money and self-indulgent "freedom" and "individuality" that we will lose more and more of our humanity and true freedom to a more cynical and clinical world.

michael mills said...

Excuse me, Jake 3988.

Joshua 11:20 is supposed to demonstrate the cruelty of the CHRISTIAN god?

I thought it was the Jewish God who commanded the genocide described in the Book of Joshua.

Or to be more historically accurate, it was Jewish political leaders in ancient times who devised a genocidal ideology and attributed it to a fictional entity, Yahveh, who supposedly commanded the Jews to exterminate other peoples who just happened to be living on territory that the Jews wanted for themselves.

michael mills said...

Excuse me, Jeffxl.

Hitler was a Christian?

Only in the same way that Trotsky was a Jew.

Both were born into their respective religious cultures and absorbed the ideologies of those cultures. But both rejected and turned against the belief-systems and moral structures of their religions.

If Jews continue to claim that Hitler and the evils perpetrated by him originated in the Christian religion, its teachings and the culture based on it, then they must accept responsibility for the two ideologies created by the "Red Rabbi" Moses Hess (Communism and Zionism) and the Jews who followed in his footsteps, Marx, Trotsky, and others, and all the evils flowing from those ideologies.

It is also quite false to claim that killing and torture were never perpetrated in the name of atheism. In the early days of the Bolshevik regime in Russia, a State-supported society for the propagation of atheism was created; its function was the persecution of all forms of religious belief and organisation, and its functionaries did imprison and kill believers who resisted, in particualr religious leaders and teachers.

The society for promoting atheism was headed by militant atheist Bolsheviks of Jewish origin. It directed its wrath primarily against the Russian Orthodox Church and other Christian sects, although observant Jews were also targeted (in much the same way as some German National Socialists from a Christian background, eg Bormann, became violently anti-religious and agitated for persecution of Christian believers).

The imprecation to stop lying is one that Jeffxl would do well to observe himself.

pabure2002 said...

The Quran is equally evil to the OT of the bible, but not the New Testament and you guys should know that. I’ve never heard of the New Testament saying it’s ok to kill, but if it does, please let me know.

Chris Creek said...

Humans are the only creatures on this planet that commit suicide. Why? We have something the rest of the creatures do not... Some call it higher knowledge, some an eternal soul, some a belief in a higher power. It all comes down to one word, Choice... What will you chose? Christ? Self? False Gods? After all if you are right, and your an Atheist, then you have nothing to gain and everything to lose. Logically, Christ is the only choice.

Sophia said...

On the other hand Jesus never told his followers to kill those who do not repent.

Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Ex 20:13 Thou shalt not Murder.

Lu 6:27 But I say unto you, which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you.

(This scripture is for individuals and not for nations as a whole. God in the Old Testament allowed Israel to destroy wicked nations.)

Anonymous said...

Love your enemy... Love does not always mean harmony or peace or happiness or roses and chocolate. I love my kids... sometimes they get punished. To them punishment is not love, however to me punishment can save their lives. If we love our enemies and go to war with them because we are punishing them for killing innocents or likewise scenerios then I say it's a just war and we are doing the right thing. If we go to war for greed or political differences then we deserve punishment. Any religion that says join us or die is wrong. "Cleansing the infidel" is not an acceptable means of growing one's faith and beliefs.

Anonymous said...

It is easy enough to study text and draw conclusions about the intentions behind it. Perhaps e ought also to consider that without any relationship with the author, we resort to much speculation, which is filtered by our own conditioning - much like studying poetry in secondary school English classes!

The OT killings were to protect a bigger plan of redemption that God had for mankind, not some self righteous crusade by a wicked God.

In the Bible, God starts to work out the redemption of mankind who has fallen away from Him and is separated from Him by fear and condemnation. He tells Abraham (In Gen 12, 1-3) that He will bless ALL nations of the earth through him. As a loving, grieving Father, He wants to recover the sons he has lost. He does this without violating His principles of justice. Man has embodied a condition that He had judged and condemned, namely sin. God is not fickle like us and cannot change His words to suit circumstance so He works out a redemption in the midst of it. Our sin will not go unpunished. Instead, He himself will send His perfect Son, a complete representation of Him and a worthy sacrifice (the guilty can't redeem the guilty after all!) to pay for the sin. All we need to do is accept that work of Christ and we are free to be reconciled in full relationship with Him. The killings in the OT were not gratuitous. There was a bigger picture in mind - ensuring that the context that God had chosen to receive the Saviour of all humanity came to maturity so that all of mankind would have the opportunity of redemption and reconciliation. Those that were killed were those that sought to in any way hinder the journey of Israel to that point in history where the Saviour could be sent. Note that God also killed part of Israel when He believed that there were elements that were so rebellious that they would remain a hinderance to this bigger redemption plan (Num 16 for instance) Once the Saviour had been born, the only killing God endorsed was His own. The bottom line is that God loves (John 3, 16) but love does not always look like it is depicted in Hollywood and sometimes, often, we find that difficult.

Abdulla said...

Here is the actual Qur'anic verses you have given, but with context and emphasis added only to understand those verses better.


(1):
2.190 Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

2.191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

2.192 But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

(2):
Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you. 2:216

Warfare was not allowed for Muslims. Muslims had been being tortured for thirteen years at Mecca. Allah commanded them to go to the city of Medina, not to fight back. But the torturers came to Medina too. Then Allah commanded them to fight for their defence. But the Muslims were no more than 300 in number at the same time oppressors were thousands. Most of the Muslims in Medina were farmers. They feared of such a mighty war. But Muslims had to go to war.

(3):
Fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward. 4:74

Here is the next verse of the above. Is it still evil? No, It is fair.

And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" 4:75

(4):
Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76

Here is the translation by Abdulla Yusuf Ali, which is more accurate:

Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan. 4:76

(5):
They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them. 4:89

(6):
If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant. 4:91

Allah didn't say, "Oh! you guys must kill innocent people without any reason." Did He?!

(7):
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom. 5:33

As long as they are not making war upon Allah and His messenger and striving after corruption in the land they are safe and they will have their hands and feet unharmed.

(8):
I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. 8:12

This verse was revealed to prophet when Muslims(most of them farmers, weak and had not experienced a war before) were going to their first war against their oppressors. They had no knowledge of warfare. If there were guns used in the warfare at that time, this verse will be different. (Just think about it :)

(9):
When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end. Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw. 8:15-17

Here is a lesson for them: "Don't turn your back in war." It is shame and if you do so, then next second you are a dead meat.

(10):
And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. 8:59-60

Will you please tell me what the evil things in this verses are?

(11):
Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. 8:65

This verse was revealed to prophet when Muslims(most of them farmers, weak and had not experienced a war before) were going to their first war against their oppressors. They had no knowledge of warfare.

(12):
It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. 8:67

Here is the translation by Abdulla Yusuf Ali, which is more accurate:

It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but Allah looketh to the Hereafter: And Allah is Exalted in might, Wise. 8:67

Don't have captives until Allah gives permission to.

(13):
Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. 9:5

This verse was revealed to prophet when a treaty between the Muslims and the oppressors was disregarded by the oppressors. They killed some Muslims in a month in which warfare was forbidden for Muslims. Muslims had to wait until Allah gives instructions for them. Anyway, here is the verse after the above.

If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. 9:6

(14):
If they ... assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief ... Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them. 9:12-14

Above verses in full.

And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist. Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers. Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them. 9:12-14

(15):
O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. 9:73

I don't like hypocrites! Do you?

(16):
Believers ... shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. 9:111

Abdulla Yusuf Ali, in his interpretation of Qur'an, says:
In a human bargain both sides give something and receive some advantage. In the divine bargain of Allah with man, Allah takes man's will and soul and his wealth and goods, and gives him in return ever-lasting Felicity.

(17):
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you. 9:123

Abdulla Yusuf Ali, in his interpretation of Qur'an, says:
When conflicts become inevitable, the first thing is to clear our surroundings of all evil, for it is only evil that we can rightly fight. To evil we must put up a stout and stiff resistance. Mealy-mouthed compromises are not right for soldiers of truth and righteousness. They are often a compound of cowardice, weariness, greed, and corruptibility.

(18):
Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks. 47:4

That verse in full:

Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you)but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. 47:4

This verse also contains a command from Allah that the captives of war must not be killed.

Now compare the above verse with this:

And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them. Deuteronomy 7:2, 7:16

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It is fair to read Qur'an in a historical context. And I hope that next time you will consider reading Qur'an that way. Thank you for your time to read and study Qur'an because most of the 'critiques' of Qur'an don't even try to read it.

Anonymous said...

read the 2:191 and continue to 2:192 obviously you did not understand what you quoted .

Abdilla said...

The 2:191 is the continuation of the verse 2:190. Just read it >>

[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.

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Thank you!

Anonymous said...

Man created GOD in his own image, so I don't see why all this creul inhumane violence is unexpected !

Anonymous said...

> Anonymous said...
> It is easy enough to study text and draw conclusions about the intentions behind it. ...
> The OT killings were to protect a bigger plan of redemption that God had for mankind, not some self righteous crusade by a wicked God.

So killing is Ok when it's for the "greater good" then?
Remind me to run if I see you with a rucksack....

mommymichael said...

let's go to sources of Islam and Christianity and see what they have to say about violence and peaceful coexistence with people practicing other religions.

in doing a little bit of research it would seem that..

"Muhammad's teaching on warfare developed after he conquered Mecca in 630 A. D. Most of the pagans living in the city became Muslims. At that time Muhammad was able to take over the city and cleanse the Ka'aba (sacred shrine) of some 360 idols resident there.

At this point it became evident to Muhammad that Jews and Christians would not accept him as prophet, so they became part of the list of Islam's enemies to be conquered. Thus, warfare was no longer to be a defensive fighting, but an aggressive Jihad against all unbelievers. This is the final teaching of the Koran which is still in force today and has inspired the recent acts of terrorism."

hmmmm

so what this is saying is, to say that Islam is a religion of peace, means to ignore the example and teachings of Muhammad.

"google university" is teaching me that he fought all the pagans, Jews, and Christians in Saudi Arabia, until he subdued them, forcing them to accept Islam. What Muhammad did is reflected in what he taught about fighting and slaying the infidels.

The claim that Islam is a peace-loving religion, is openly contradicted by the Koran that reads like a "terrorism for dummies" book.

okay so let's go to google university again and look up the koran. maybe someone can tell me more about these if i'm taking them out of context. http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html

"O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk." [al-Ma'idah 5:51.11]

"Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you" [al-Tawbah 9:123]

Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. 9:5


now before you do it, i'll do it... what about violence in the bible?

flat out, christians who have resorted in violence to advance god's kingdom, cannot justify themselves with the teachings or example of christ. in fact they've betrayed it.

christ chose to be crucified rather than to slay his enemies with the sheer power of his spoken word. and in the bible they taunted him for it while he was dying on the cross!!
he taught his followers to establish the kingdom of God, not through fighting, but through peace, and teaching about the saving grace of God.

so i'll say it again... christians have no biblical justification for using violence in the name of christ.

There is no question that they've used violence, torture, and military crusades to destroy "infidels" and "heretics," but those who committed these acts, betrayed the person and teaching of christ.
They turned the church into a "terroristic organization" acting against the teaching of christ who condemned the use of violence as a means to establish his Kingdom.

in fact as he was being led away from the garden, he told Peter who cut off the ear of the high priest's servant, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword" (Matt 26:52).

so in essence while Muhammad commanded his followers to fight pagans, Jews and Christians until they were killed or subdued, Christ taught his disciples to endure persecution and pray for the persecutors.
"Blessed are you when men revile you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven . . . I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven" (Matt 5:11-12, 44,45).

christian faith turned the Roman world upside down by the sheer power of the grace of God manifested in the loving and forgiving attitudes of christians, who were willing to suffer and die for their faith.
By contrast, Islam conquered much of the Roman world during the first century of its expansion (632-732) (google university) by slaughtering a countless number of innocent people and forcing their faith upon the survivors.

What a difference! christ condemned the use of violence to promote the Christian faith, while Muhammad commanded the use of the sword to advance the cause of Islam.

so i'm going to quote another source because i questioned this as well when typing all this up... what about the book of josua in the bible and the violence it talks about?


"The Extermination of the Canaanites Was a Divine Punishment for their Wickedness. Some appeal to passages found in the book of Joshua regarding the extermination of various tribes living in Canaan, to argue that the Bible is sanctioning a "holy war" to promote the true worship of God.

The problem with this allegation is the failure to recognize that the extermination of the various tribes living in Canaan was a divine punishment for their wickedness, and not a method to convert them. Dead people cannot change their religion.. Like Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because their wickedness had reached the limits of God's mercy, so the tribes living in Canaan were exterminated on account of their sinfulness.

Hundreds of years before the invasion of Canaan, God told Abraham that his descendants would be sojourners in a foreign land for "four hundred years" (Gen 15:13), before they could settle in the land of Canaan. The reason given for this waiting period is clearly stated: "for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete" (Gen 15:16). In other words, God was willing to wait for several generations before exterminating the tribes living in Canaan, because their wickedness had not yet reached the limits of His mercy.

Later God warned the nation of Israel to be careful in not repeating the sins of the Canaanites, otherwise they would suffer a similar punishment. The warning was in vain. Eventually God used the Assyrian and Babylonians as the instrument of His justice to punish the people of Israel for their sinfulness, in the same way as He had used Israel as an instrument of His justice to purge the land of Canaan of its sinfulness."


so in the biblical account it says that God's holiness was manifested in the punishment of unrepentant sinners. This is missing in the koran about Muhammad's raid and wars. Instead, his motivation we constantly see is the spreading of the rule of Islam by destroying and looting the enemies.

one more point then i'll stop

the bible does not say to use holy wars to make people worship god.
nowhere in the Old or New Testaments does God command his people to attack pagan nations, either in self-defense or as a way to promote the true worship of God. The proclamation of salvation in the Bible is always by witnessing and persuasion.

Arie Sheyn said...

Actions are louder than words.

Islam has murdered 270-420 million people in 1,300 years.

Christians have murdered 30-50 million people in 2,000 years.

The Crusades were caused by Islamic invasion of the Byzantine Empire. Rome was asked to save the Byzantines.

People say Christians justified a slave trade.

Muslims justify a slave trade today. I won't go into the details of how much worse Black slaves have/had it under Muslims "mastership" than with Americans... it would make the most hateful KKK member faint from shock.

Can You DIstinguish The Good & The Bad? said...

Why havent you write about forgiveness and love ??? Compare them, and tell me which is a better book!

11-year old Atheist-Libertarian said...

'"Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you."

...is incompatible with fascism, which treats war as a glorious activity, not a necessary evil.'
--- Anonymous

If Allah is all-powerful than he could stop need for any necessary evils!

Also, Allah could stop people from doing non-necessary evils. He never seems to do that.

If Allah doesn't want to 'interfere w/free will' than he could at least stop the problem I present in my first sentence(of this comment).

Louis Farrakhan said...

I don't know whether you or the Mohammedan are worse.

Ezra REWROTE the Jewish Bible, added books of Myth i.e. Book of Esther, corrupted parts of the books of the Prophets (see Jeremiah ch 7; 8:8) added the Oral Tradition & created Talmudic Judaism, which Jesus CONDEMNED (Matthew ch 15; ch 19; ch 23; John 8:43-47.

There are 2 parts to the Quran - the Mecca & the Medina parts. The Mecca is ecumenical, because Muhammad was weak, but the Medina part is DICTATORIAL, because now Muhammad has an army behind him.
You cannot read the Quran from front to back, like most books, because it wasn't collated that way. The whole thing is a nightmare to read.

BoddiE said...

There was Christianity until Jesus' first coming. The God we have referred to above is the same God today, whose fight in that past was against everyone who worshipped idol in the place of God Himself who, had warned that no one could worship any other god but Jehovah.
He was not the God for only the Christians at that point. He was God for all.
Jesus Christ brought the message of repentance, forgiveness, love of the Father, Grace, Mercy and Hope.
He brought the message of freedom to worship or not worship. There is no forcing anyone to serve God by compulsion.
Let us get it clear pls.