12 December 2009

God smote them with hemorrhoids in their secret parts

You may have noticed at the end of the last killing, that the Philistines stole the ark of the covenant from the Israelites. And that’s when their troubles really began.

The Philistines brought the ark to Ashdod and set it up next to their god, Dagon.
The Philistines took the ark of God ... unto Ashdod ... into the house of Dagon, and set it by Dagon. 1 Samuel 5.1-2
The next morning Dagon had fallen on his face.
When they of Ashdod arose early on the morrow, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face. 5.3
So they put Dagon back in his place, but the next morning he had fallen down again, and this time his head and hands had fallen off, so he was no more than a stump.
When they arose early on the morrow morning, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the ground before the ark of the LORD; and the head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands were cut off upon the threshold; only the stump of Dagon was left to him. 5.4
Then God started to get nasty. He destroyed the people of Asdod and smote those that survived with hemorrhoids.
But the hand of the LORD was heavy upon them of Ashdod, and he destroyed them, and smote them with emerods (hemorrhoids). 5.6
So the people of Ashdod decided to send the ark to another Philistine city: Gath.
What shall we do with the ark of the God of Israel? And they answered, Let the ark of the God of Israel be carried about unto Gath. And they carried the ark of the God of Israel about thither. 5.8
And then God smote the people of Gath, the small and the great, with hemorrhoids in their secret parts.
The hand of the LORD was against the city with a very great destruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts. 5.9
After that, what do you think the Gathites decided to do with God's ark? They sent it to Ekron.
Therefore they sent the ark of God to Ekron. 5.10
When the ark arrived at Ekron, God did the usual thing: he killed most of the people and gave the rest hemorrhoids.
There was a deadly destruction throughout all the city; the hand of God was very heavy there. And the men that died not were smitten with the emerods: and the cry of the city went up to heaven. 5.11-12
The Bible doesn't say how many people God killed in Ashdod, Gath, and Ekron. So I'll just call it 3000, 1000 from each city. 

58 comments:

Daystar said...

Some scholars believe the jerboas (small jumping mouse like rodents) who were terrorizing the area (1 Samuel 6:4-5) brought the bubonic plague to the Philistines through flea infestation, though the Bible doesn’t specifically state this; in fact it seems to indicate the jerboas brought only harm to the vegetation. The Philistines were a source of trouble for the Israelites, tempting them with their idols and false gods. (Judges 3:3-4)

Steve Wells said...

Yeah, that's true Daystar. But if God gave them bubonic plague, that would be even worse than hemorrhoids.

How do you feel about a God that gives gives people bubonic plague (or hemorrhoids) to punish them for -- what? Having the ark in their city? Being Philistines? Worshiping gods that their parents taught them to worship?

A god who would give people hemorrhoids or the bubonic plague is a sick fuck that everyone should stay the hell away from. (Of course that's easy to do since he's non-existent.)

Daystar said...

I try to look at it from all angles; being as practical as I can. If God is non-existent that means man made up this story and he is the sick fuck I want to keep away from. If, on the other hand, this God does exist and this story is true there are two choices before me. Either reject this God and live my life until death eternal. In other words, curse God and die. Or notice that God is very good to his faithful servants and very bad to those who are disobedient, so be an obedient servant in paradise forever. In either case the last thing I would want to do is waste time complaining about this God. Either he is a joke that isn’t worth my time or I’m on the wrong side of reason and I got a short amount of living to do and better get on with it.

matt311 said...

Wow... so, hemorrhoids is apparently a divine punishment for keeping the Ark; I wonder if that poor warehouse guard from the end of Raiders got bad hemorrhoids after the movie?

Nope, nope; too much to think about...

twillight said...

First, I think you should involve the killing of the 4000 israelites amongst Yahwe's killings. Wether the Lord of Hosts directly smiten them or just helped the philisteans, he is definitly responsible for the loss.

Second: some "scholar" says the Arc was a nuclear device. Sounds as good as a portable-bubonic-plague-spreading-container-what-only-infects-plants.
Bullshit faiytale.

busterggi said...

Davey your god is psychotic, no amount of your weaseling will change that.

Steve Wells said...

twillight,

I don't see how I can include the 4000 Israelite deaths in 1 Sam 4:2. The Israelites were a superstitious bunch and attributed everything to God. But the Bible doesn't in this case say that God helped the Philistines kill the Israelites. Does it?

Steve Wells said...

Daystar,

So you are afraid that the God of the Bible might exist and if you don't believe in him he might give you hemorrhoids or the plague or something even worse.

But what about Allah, Daystar? Allah might exist, and if he does you will be tortured forever in hell for not believing in him. It's all described in gruesome detail in the Quran.

There are thousands of gods to choose from and each has the same amount of evidence for belief: zero.

But OK, let's assume the God of the Bible exists. And he gives people hemorrhoids just for the hell of it. I can see how you could fear and hate such a monster, but how could you pretend to love him?

twillight said...

Well, Steve, the israelites says it, and they are the only one who attributes things to their god, so for me at least the Bible says so.

But its your opinion that counts in the end. And yes, the narration do not says anything about the matter.

Daystar said...

Steve,

You were a man of the sea, and you know that the sea has taken the lives of many, and yet you love the sea. You know that if you respect the sea and know how to obey its rules you may not be killed by it. So how is it that you don’t understand my love for Jehovah God?

As a sailor you might have been called to kill for your country. Many atheist who scorn God for killing are political. They put their faith in the kingdoms of men. How many lives were taken in wars in the last century? 200 million or so?

We have to ask ourselves why did God do all of this killing you’ve been on about?

twillight said...

Well, Daystar Steve likes and not loves the sea.
Second: the sea is a blind force, and not an inteligent entity.
Third: I think Steve likes what he can do with/in the sea, and not the sea itself.
Forth: Steve do not think/hallucinate that the sea gives commandments to him.
Fifth: Even by knowing the rules you can die on the sea, because there are no real rules, and the sea do not care.
Sixth: sailors do not called to make war. Soldiers are.
Seventh: as a sailor you don't want to obey, but to control the sea.
Eighth: many religious person involved in politics too. So?
Ninth: earthly kingdoms are real, as well as earthly beings. Gods and such are imagenary.
Tenth: humans are not perfect, good or caring, unlike you claim your god is.
Eleventh: Most wars, even in the last cetury was made because of religious reasons.

busterggi said...

Davey, why would you love something out fear?

Are you a masochist?

Are you into being dominated & humiliated?

Steve Wells said...

Daystar,

You say, "We have to ask ourselves why did God do all of this killing you’ve been on about?"

I agree. That's what I would like believers to ask themselves. And if they have an answer tell us about it.

Brucker said...

"I agree. That's what I would like believers to ask themselves. And if they have an answer tell us about it."

And yet, when one does so, you can't even agree to disagree.

You and I are more alike than I think you'd like to admit. Both of us say that we'd like to hear all the arguments from the opposing camp, yet we repeatedly and perhaps stubbornly fail to be convinced.

Steve Wells said...

I posted your guest post, Brucker. And I will post more if you you or other believers provide them. What more do you want?

Most believers don't know about most of God's killings in the Bible, and those that do pretend they aren't bothered by them. I'd like to point them out before they can be covered up by theological perspectives or empty platitudes (you've got to cruel to be kind, we can't judge God, whatever God does is right, etc.)

Brucker said...

I'm not saying that you're not willing to listen, in fact, your willingness to listen is a large part of my point. I'm pointing out that we've gone back and forth on this stuff for years (I'm pretty sure a lot longer for you than for me) and nobody's opinion is being changed on any major issues.

Here's a platitude for you: you're preaching to the choir. At least you're doing a good job of it.

Daystar said...

The answer to the question is obvious. From Adam to Armegeddon. Sin = death. Sin is to miss the mark set by God. God created us so he knows that it leads to destruction. He wants his creation to live forever, but they have to do it his way because he knows his way is the right way. All of the people you count as God having killed lived as a result of his creation. Otherwise they would never have been alive. They were already dead. The children Brucker was talking about, the Philistines . . . they were all already dead.

busterggi said...

Tell you what, Davey, Brucker - why don't you two believers fight it out so we know which of you is "right" and then the rest of us can debate the winner.

Because you disagree with one another so one of you has to be a false believer.

Brucker said...

busterggi, there's just not a big enough sample size with the two of us. How are we supposed to know God's will unless He slaughters 20,000 or so of us?

(Am I a bad Christian to have a sick sense of humor?)

Daystar said...

Buster also thinks that I love God out of a fear of death, which is ridiculous. I doubt that buster thinks there is such a thing as a good Christian; that’s probably the only thing buster and I would agree on. Mark 10:18

The fact is that to God, life is sacred but there are many scriptures which indicate that those who are spiritually dead, though alive are worse off than those who are physically dead though spiritually in good standing in the memory of God. In the book of life.

God says that he delights not in the death of the unrighteous but that he rejoices in the turning away from unrighteousness as a preservation. Life everlasting.

When God sees that the inclination of a person or people is beyond turning back - the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, including children, and the 42 children mauled by the Syrian bears for example then it isn’t surprising that their unfortunate demise, in certain periods of Biblical history, serves as an example.

busterggi said...

Davey, your own posts like the one earlier in this thread

"You were a man of the sea, and you know that the sea has taken the lives of many, and yet you love the sea. You know that if you respect the sea and know how to obey its rules you may not be killed by it. So how is it that you don’t understand my love for Jehovah God?"

Shows your 'love' is nothing but fear.

& Brucker, now that Davey has said you are not a good Christian can we hear your reply?

skanksta said...

"When God sees that the inclination of a person or people is beyond turning back - the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, including children, and the 42 children mauled by the Syrian bears for example then it isn’t surprising that their unfortunate demise, in certain periods of Biblical history, serves as an example."

Lol!

Okay, I'd normally just think "lol" to all the nonsense you write, but I'll explain the stupidity of this statment..

Take the example of both myself and Adolf Hitler.
Me first, I went to a church school - in Britain religious education is compulsory until the age of 16 - as is daily worship.

(It's a free country and you can be exempted from all/any of this if you believe in different Gods/Son of Gods/Followers of Gods/Divine servants of Gods/Ways of sacrificing to Gods etc. than whatever Gods or God you school happens to promote)

My school happened to promote the Bronze Age Jewish War God - Yahweh - and in particular that Jesus wasn't a man at all, but the one and only incarnation of God on Earth, made flesh. I would clearly be one of those "seeds" that fell on stony ground. I had every opportunity to understand that I could achieve eternal salvation by worshipping God in the correct way.

Yet I and almost everyone else in the entire school, failed to follow the words of God. We didn't sacrifice unblemished animals, we didn't burn them alive on precisely made altars - even though we all know that such 'aromas are pleasing to the lord. We didn't put 'the lord' in capitals, we refer to Jesus as Jesus no the christ. We routinely blasphemed, made graven images, cheeked our parents and played conjuring with magic sets. The school promoting this God didn't even do it properly ! They allowed women teachers ! They let women talk in the school chapel !

Worst of all, there were one or two poor, unfortunate figures at school - a girl whose face had been hideously disfigured by burns and a guy with genetically abnormal legs - but both of these were welcomed by our chaplain in to the school chapel !

I guess it's not really my fault which such a monster bringing freaks in to the congregation of the Lord. There were even some people allowed in to that congregation of the Lord that had an illegitimate ancestor at some point in the last ten generations of ancestors - for shame!

Thus, me and almost everyone else in the entire school, came to believe that Jesus was just a deluded cult leader and that God was just another primitive fairy tale, like Ra, Horus, Joseph Smith, Vishnu, Mohammed and (my FAVOURITE God) John Frum.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/vanuatu/1333146/John-Frum-is-given-his-marching-orders.html

skanksta said...

I began openly defying God DAILY. In thought and deed and action. I ignored all religious instruction. I lived my life as if the bible and everything in tit was a load of primitive deluded nonsense. I ignored myriad instructions, once put a bible in the recycling bin, even to the point of writing blasphemies such as this online....

Yahweh almost certainly is the work of primitive men. The bible has no relevance to our lives. Jesus was a deluded cult leader. If Yahweh does exist he is SICK. YAHWEH IS A SERIOUSLY WEIRD SADISTIC LOONY. JESUS WAS NO DIFFERENT TO DAVID KORESH. MOST OF THE BIBLE IS NASTY BACKWARD BIGOTRY.
I COULD go on and on, but the point is the bible is CRYSTAL CLEAR in many verses that I'm due a fireball/pustules/burning/first son and first pet kitten killed etc.

Along with almost the entire indigenous population of Britain, not to mention Europe, Australia and even some rationalists in NOrth America I have most definitely heard the (ah-ah-ah-ahem) "good news" about Jesus, God and the HOly Ghost, yet flatly refute, belittle, ignore and ridicule it. In addition I often work Friday nights, Saturday during daylight and Sunday !

WHERE ARE THE FIREBALLS ?!

Now, I mentioned Hitler, because of course, many Christians are decent people and would think that God in his plan has decided not to burn me in hell FOREVER. He doesn't beset me with punishments now and might even kindly only burn me in torment for a few thousand years, before allowing me in to his kingdom - because I don't seriously transgress any IMPORTANT moral laws. I've never enslaved or stoned anyone for example and therefore 'new god' will ignore his own precise and clear instructions and let me in.

I'm getting bored now - I REALLY only wanted to write "Lol!" remember - so I'll leave you to come up with some mental gymnastics to explain the logic of Hitler..

Daystar said...

Shanksta,

I'm sorry, I must have missed your point - something about Hitler?

Brucker said...

Daystar: Buster also thinks that I love God out of a fear of death, which is ridiculous.

It's very difficult to explain the concept of reverential fear to someone who doesn't believe in God. It's not fear of death, but fear of something far more scary. (See post here.)

busterggi: Brucker, now that Davey has said you are not a good Christian can we hear your reply?

It's a fact that most Christians seem to have forgotten, despite the popular bumper-sticker slogan: "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven." Christians, "true" Christians, are people who have recognized the evil in themselves and yielded to God's will, so no, there are no "good" Christians.

skanksta: JESUS WAS NO DIFFERENT TO DAVID KORESH.

Wow, seriously? 'Cause I'm not seeing it.

Daystar: I'm sorry, I must have missed your point - something about Hitler?

Yeah, that one went whoosh right over my head, too. Must be a "rationalist" thing.

skanksta said...

Ok, I was getting bored, I thought you might have the imagination to work out where I was going with Hitler. Maybe I just shoulda stuck to "Lol!"

My point was that there can be no doubt AT ALL from your holy book that I will get AND deserve all kinds of nasty, vile punishments for my various sins. (including, but not limited too... ignoring and ridiculing your god, taking the lords name in vain, putting Ba'al in my Facebook religion, working on sunday, submitting to women teachers, wearing mixed garments and so on and on and on.

If your holy book IS true - then why the hell have I not been specifically and unambiguously punished ???

I hoped you might have the imagination to realise that I metion Hitler, because he's shorthand for evillest guy of all time.

ie.
you two might say that your god has lightened up and realised i'm not actually EVIL and not kill/maim/torture me - despite the myriad crimes against I regularly commit against him.

Yet, you said in your post...
"When God sees that the inclination of a person or people is beyond turning back..the 42 children mauled by bears...then it isn’t surprising that their unfortunate demise, in certain periods of Biblical history, serves as an example."

So....
Your god kills all these 30m+ people in horrid, painful ways, often when they are innocent, yes ?
Being far more morally advanced than imaginary, bronze-age, war gods you wrestle with your conscience over these killings and decide they must be some sort of 'lesson', yes ?
Yes, BUT then you have no logical problem with your god NOT intervening in the case of Hitler - who, we must remember was horribly mean to your god's chosen people.

Why not ? Why does your god kill and torture all sorts of people for the most minor 'lesson' but NOT smite Hitler, STalin, Pol-Pot, &c. &c. &c.

This logical problem calls for a new hypothesis - a hypothesis that your god is just another imaginary god like all the others. No more real or in control of human events than Mohammed, Vishnu, David Koresh, Buddha, Ra, Thor, Prince Phillip, Poseidon, Mohammmed, Al-lat, Allah, JuJu and any of the other thousands of imaginary gods that have been created by other cultures in other times.

Now, @ Brucker,
you seem a nice fella and certainly disgusted by all this bloody stuff. Whenever Steve brings us the nxt hilarious episdoe of horror you ALWAYS answer with some strange cognitive dissonance, for eg.

skanksta said...

for example...
"It's very difficult to explain the concept of reverential fear to someone who doesn't believe in God. It's not fear of death, but fear of something far more scary."

and all the other sad stuff you came out with.
It's sad because you're a nice guy with more advanced morals than your own god.
I can see your brain making more and more painful gymanstics. Your decent self KNOWS that it's weird that you have to fear god, but your religious side has to make ANOTHER excuse for him.

If you consider it empirically and try and a new hypothesis - that god is imaginary - you will find that you can finally ENJOY the bible for the amusing, disgusting, gorefest it is.


Now apologies, for the length of that reply that you have to read over THREE pages.
I really will stick to "Lol" next time !

Brucker said...

Speaking of mental gymnastics. Note that skeptics, when given no response will say, "See? The fundies have no answer for this!" When given a response, however, suddenly "...your religious side has to make ANOTHER excuse for him..."

I'd love to take a poll: how many of you would rather have all the Christians pull a Mike and just leave so you can sit around and pat yourselves on the back for figuring out this Bible stuff that apparently nobody before Steve Wells ever thought of, or do you enjoy discussions with people holding a different viewpoint? Personally, I enjoy the dialogue, but if I'm just annoying everyone here, I'm sure I could find better ways to spend my time.

Daystar said...

Shanksta,

Okay . . . There can be doubt in “my holy book” that you will get all kinds of nasty, vile punishments for your various sins. Moses killed a man for insulting his people just before being selected by God to deliver his people from slavery, and write the Law of the nation God formed. King David, beloved of God, sent an honorable man to his death so he could shag his wife. Paul persecuted and killed Christians before he became one himself.

Now, you may be “all that” but I doubt your mischievousness in school pants can compare to the above. Anyway, although I am not the judge I can’t say for sure that Hitler won’t be in paradise before me. The least sin is equal to the greatest. If I were the judge you and Hitler would be in paradise as well as myself so long as you were of the right mental inclination. Judging by your attitude I would guess that if the end came tomorrow your chances would be slim, but 20 years ago I sounded quite a bit like you. If God sees the heart, and he does, then he may know something about you that you and I don’t.

Why haven’t you been struck down with lightning or ass tumors yet? If you were as enthusiastic about listening as you are about projecting you would have noticed I said in Bible times as an example given that they were foreknown by God to have a faulty mental inclination towards destruction. Not just their own. So, it doesn’t seem surprising that God put to death the children who mocked Elisha were probably of the same ilk that gave Elijah before him a hard time, and though it isn’t divulged if their mental inclination, or spirit, if you will would have resulted in the same as Saul AKA Paul, who led the mob in the killing of Stephen, the first Christian martyr I would hazard a guess the outcome was somewhat different for a reason, wouldn’t you agree?

Now, by the end God will have allowed the death of billions of people, from, as I said, Adam to Armageddon, including Jesus Christ, for the same reason. Sin. Jesus, though, is the only one of them that hadn’t sinned so instead of complaining about it I would recommend an adjustment in attitude because, if you could ask Adam - it doesn’t bode well for you as such. Jesus, after all, though without sin rebuked the man who called him good, saying none are good except God.

Steve Wells said...

Brucker,

"Here's a platitude for you: you're preaching to the choir. At least you're doing a good job of it."

Well, I try, Brucker. And you're probably right about the choir. I'm just hoping that they'll all start singing soon.

But there are two groups that I'd like most to reach: Bible believers who have never read the Bible, and those who have never read the Bible and haven't decided yet what to make of it.

I'd like believers to know what they believe in (most have no idea), and prospective believers to know enough not to believe.

Steve Wells said...

Daystar,

You answered the question, "why did God do all of this killig?" with this, "Sin = death. ... All of the people you count as God having killed lived as a result of his creation. Otherwise they would never have been alive. They were already dead. The children Brucker was talking about, the Philistines . . . they were all already dead."

So when God burned people to death for complaining, like he did in Numbers 11, they were already dead. And you can't kill people who are already dead.

When God drowns people, smashes them with burning stones, buries them alive, forces friends and family to kill each other, etc. -- he's not really killing people because they are all already dead.

No one can ever kill anyone, because everyone is already dead. (And it's OK for God or anyone else to kill anyone because everyone is already dead anyway.)

Thanks for clearing that up, Daystar.

Brucker said...

"But there are two groups that I'd like most to reach: Bible believers who have never read the Bible, and those who have never read the Bible and haven't decided yet what to make of it."

Sounds reasonable to me. Do you think you're actually doing it?

Daystar said...

Steve,

I also said: "The fact is that to God, life is sacred but there are many scriptures which indicate that those who are spiritually dead, though alive are worse off than those who are physically dead though spiritually in good standing in the memory of God. In the book of life.

God says that he delights not in the death of the unrighteous but that he rejoices in the turning away from unrighteousness as a preservation. Life everlasting."

Let the dead bury the dead meant let the spiritually dead bury the literal dead. " 'I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob’? He is the God, not of the dead, but of the living." Jesus said, long after Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were dead.

Steve Wells said...

"Do you think you're actually doing it?"

A little bit, maybe.

But the cumulative effect of hundreds of skeptic sites is taking a huge toll on religion. The nasty, cruel, and crazy stuff in the Bible was rarely mentioned and little known before the internet. Now it is shouted everywhere.

It is becoming increasingly difficult for a believer to be proud of the Bible. Once pride turns to outright shame, belief will dwindle away.

Steve Wells said...

So which is it, Daystar?

Is everyone already dead so killing people is no big deal (as you say here), or is life sacred and killing is wrong (as you say here)?

skanksta said...

Brucker - when you say...

"I'd love to take a poll: how many of you would rather have all the Christians pull a Mike and just leave so you can sit around and pat yourselves on the back for figuring out this Bible stuff that apparently nobody before Steve Wells ever thought of, or do you enjoy discussions with people holding a different viewpoint?"

I'd have to say that's the first time a "fundie", (as I'm learning to call these new class of people!) has made me think, "touche!"

I poll 1 for Brucker staying ! And I'll try and be nicer.

I DO like the dialogue and I'm 'meeting' some nice people, like yourself that I would never have known existed before.

I've read through all of Steve's blog and The Brick Testament now and I realise there's no point arguing against people that voluntarily disobey there own logic and it's possibly quite mean too.
In the spirit of solidarity with all mankind, I am now going to thoroughly enjoy becoming a bible apologist for a while !

It's going to be a fun mental exercise and it will help me understand you 'fundies'. Yet again, I'd like to thank Steve and Brucker for making me realise this strange littlw world even exists !

Now I'm noticing it all the time - like watching the US PGA golf, the winner of $1m or whatever always thanks his 'god', lol! You can see all the euro commentators smiling politely - do I need to explain how stoopid praying to win golf tourneys is?!? Or, like on the news...it will say, "In America, people STILL believe in gods!" and, "Presidential candidate suffers for his Mormon faith!"

Boy that was the funniest - you see when I make that 'David Koresh/Jesus' interchangeable comment - I absolutely mean it. In Europe people think it's well funny that you have problem electing a Mormon, but demand the 'right' type of Christian, lol! Would you accept a Muslim president ? Jewish ?
What the hell does it matter what people believe in private ?

btw - You say Steve ISN'T the first, (isn't he ?!), but he SURE IS the funniest...

"After, the slaughter, god got down to the serious business of what garments to wear..."

Genuine, lol, but for the next post, I'm going to try and answer it as a 'fundie'.

Brucker and Daystar don't go !

busterggi said...

" Brucker said...
Daystar: Buster also thinks that I love God out of a fear of death, which is ridiculous.

It's very difficult to explain the concept of reverential fear to someone who doesn't believe in God. It's not fear of death, but fear of something far more scary. "

Either way its fear not love.

But thanks for slipping up for a moment and being honest.

Daystar said...

Steve,

That killing is no big deal was your words, not mine. Besides, saying the people were already (spiritually) dead was only an aside. It wasn't a reason for killing, it is only something for consideration.

Steve Wells said...

Daystar,

"That killing is no big deal was your words, not mine."

Really? It sure sounded like you were saying that God's killing were no big deal. Here's how you answered the question, "Why did God do all of this killing?"

"The answer to the question is obvious. ... Sin = death. ... All of the people you count as God having killed ... The children Brucker was talking about, the Philistines . . . they were all already dead."

Sounds to me like it's no big deal to you. Everyone sins so everyone's already dead. And there's nothing wrong with God killing a bunch of dead people.

Or were you trying to say something else?

Daystar said...

Steve,

It's no big deal to me because these people lived thousands of years before I was born. If I get killed because someone robs me and some guy from the distant future goes through the police records to count "how many people died because of money" I doubt it would be a big deal to anyone with a savings account then.

Its no big deal to you because you don't even think these people were real. None of this happened, its all a myth, just ask twillight. He knows, he was there. Perhaps next you can address how many trolls were killed in the Lord Of The Rings.

The answer to why all of the killing is all about sin, going all the way back to Adam. I don't think that you can properly address the killing without consideration of sin. Had Adam not sinned, none of those people, including Jesus, would have had to die. None of the Philistines or Eli's sons, or any of us.

It is far more important to be spiritually alive and well than living a brief life in sin and then being dead forever, unless you just don't want to live according to God's standards.

Ardent skeptics and atheists don't demonstrate any interest in discovering eternal life in paradise Earth and God isn't going to shove it down their throats. So to God, they, like the Philistines who you counted as having been killed by God were as good as dead. It was only a matter of relatively a short period of time.

How many skeptics are going to change their mind and strive for eternal life with Jehovah God, without sin, disease, and death? Now that, to God, is a big deal, as I pointed out earlier. God doesn’t delight in the destruction of the wicked he delights in their turning away from sin. He wants them to live forever on earth in peace, without death. But if they don’t want to what do you expect him to do?

It is their choice, isn't it? Just as it was Adam’s choice.

Steve Wells said...

Daystar,

"It's no big deal to me because these people lived thousands of years before I was born."

Time has nothing to do with it. It would be as wrong for God to burn people to death for complaining (as he supposedly did in Numbers 11:1) as it would be for me to burn my children to death for complaining about tonight's dinner.

If it's no big deal to you if people are burned to death, you have no human decency left in you at all.

"Its no big deal to you because you don't even think these people were real. ... Perhaps next you can address how many trolls were killed in the Lord Of The Rings."

God's killings are a big deal to me because more than two billion people believe in the God of the Bible and, therefore, believe that these killings were done by God. Yet most of these believers don't know about God's killings. I'd just like them to know about the God they say they believe in (and discourage others from believing in such a monster).

If a couple billion people begin to believe in the Lord of the Rings the way that you believe in the Bible, then I might start counting dead trolls.

Brucker said...

skanksta, thanks for my first good laugh of the day, you're becoming quite hilarious.

"I'd have to say that's the first time a 'fundie', (as I'm learning to call these new class of people!) has made me think, 'touche!' "

Most people take "fundie" as a derogatory term, actually. I like to throw it around as I tend to lose my "fundie cred" by being politically liberal despite being pretty well theologically conservative.

"I've read through all of Steve's blog and The Brick Testament now and I realise there's no point arguing against people that voluntarily disobey there own logic and it's possibly quite mean too."

It's not a disobeying of logic; it's a realization that logic only takes one so far. (Don't worry, that link goes to a much shorter essay than the last one.)

"...do I need to explain how stoopid praying to win golf tourneys is?!?"

No, I've always thought the idea of God being intimately involved in sporting events is a silly one.

"Would you accept a Muslim president ? Jewish ?
What the hell does it matter what people believe in private ?
"

Personally, I advocated that a Mormon President would be a good thing, at least in theory. A person's religious beliefs aren't as important in everyday life as their moral values. I'd gladly vote for an atheist so long as I believed their values were solid.

Brucker said...

busterggi: "Either way its fear not love."

Wrong, you're missing the point. Here' let me give a very straightforward and down-to-earth example: I love my wife. (I can't prove this any more than I can prove the existence of God, but I'm hoping you'll take my word.) Becuase I love my wife, Christmas presents a unique fear: fear that I can't possibly find a present that will express how much I love her. That's real love, and real fear, not only coexisting, but the latter existing because of the former.

Steve Wells: "It sure sounded like you were saying that God's killing were no big deal."

Maybe you confused something he said with something I said?

Steve Wells said...

Brucker,

No, I meant to say that Daystar doesn't think God's killings are a big deal. (The people were already dead, it was a long time ago, it was all caused by Adam's sin, or whatever)

It's true that you don't seem to be troubled by God's killings either, and I think for similar reasons. You both seem to have a theological perspective that covers a multitude of God's sins, though I suspect your theologies are quite different. (Unless you've become a JW lately.)

Brucker said...

Ah, Daystar is a JW? I didn't realize. That makes things much more interesting.

Among other things, the JW view of Hell is quite different from the fundamentalist view.

Steve Wells said...

Well, I should let Daystar speak for himself about his beliefs. I can only speculate based on things he's said in the past at the SAB discussion board.

But he has many beliefs that are similar or identical to the JWs. Among these are (correct me if I'm wrong here, Daystar) that Adam was created by God in 4026 BCE; Jesus returned in some strange way in 1914; there is no hell and there's room for only 144,000 in heaven (it was filled up in 1935, so don't even think about going there), with everyone else that survives Armageddon living forever on Paradise Earth; and that Jesus isn't who you think he is (he's really the archangel Michael in disguise).

I'll let Daystar tell us the rest.

skanksta said...

To Daystar...

"Ardent skeptics and atheists don't demonstrate any interest in discovering eternal life in paradise Earth"

That's not true at all !
I'd LOVE to live forever. I'd love to spend eternity after death with my family and friends. I'd love to be full of love and light and know that my death in this life wasn't the end. 72 gorgeous virgins wouldn't be bad either. Maybe a fine feast in grand banqueting hall with a load of mighty warriors would be cool.

Find it hard to see how submitting to imaginary beings like Allah, Odin and Yahweh might help is all.

skanksta said...

A JW ! ?

Are they the ones that believe they should let their own children die, instead to blood transfusions ?!

Cool, I'm wanna know more..

What is their hell like ?
Why was the 3rd hottest girl (Marcella!) in school one of them ?
Why don't they like blood transfusions ?
ARe they thinking of changing their name to Yahweh's Witnesses ?

Might even join...

Daystar said...

Brucker, I am not, nor have I ever been a JW, though my beliefs, such as on hell, are for the most part similar.

Daystar said...

Steve, My beliefs are similar, but not identical. Adam was created by Jehovah in 4026 B.C.E., Jesus returned in presence in 1914, though that doesn’t mean what is traditionally thought to be a return, as in physical form resulting in the end of the world. Hell is a pagan teaching adopted by apostate Christianity, there is plenty of room in heaven, but only 144,000 will go there in spirit form. Most are the meek who inherit the earth, not heaven. I believe the JW idea of 1935 as you presented it has long changed, Jesus existed in spirit form before he came to earth in human form, there he was the arch angel Michael.

Daystar said...

Shanksta, the JW doesn’t believe in hell. They have removed much of the apostate teachings of pagan influenced Christendom. Hell, the immortal soul, the trinity, rapture, Christmas, Easter and the cross are among these. They don’t like blood transfusion because blood is sacred, the soul, and the Bible, both Hebrew / Aramaic and Christian Greek scriptures warn against eating it so they figure to insert it into their veins is the same as eating it. They acknowledge the English pronunciation of God’s name as Jehovah, though they may also use Yahweh or, depending upon the language other forms.

Brucker said...

Daystar: "Brucker, I am not, nor have I ever been a JW, though my beliefs, such as on hell, are for the most part similar."

So what then, are you part of the "Bible Student" movement? You've really got me quite curious.

skanksta said...

No hell, christmas, easter, rapture or blood transfusions ?

They're the best bits !

(not going to join JW)

Blogger Daystar said...

Steve, My beliefs are similar, but not identical. Adam was created by Jehovah in 4026 B.C.E.,


I KNOW you're joking - if you really believed that you'd surely say "BC" than the PC "BCE"...

Daystar said...

Brucker, I am a student of the Bible, though independent from any denomination or affiliation, including Bible Student.

Steve Wells said...

Daystar,

I would love to see how you came up with these beliefs by studying the Bible! (Although, this isn't the place for it.)

Why not have a series of posts at your new blog that explain it all for us: that Jesus was created in 4026 BCE; that he returned in 1914 (but no one noticed); that he is (or was) the Archangel Michael; and that Armageddon occurred in 1975.

I'm not interested in a verse by verse commentary on Genesis (like your doing now), but it would be fun to see a non-JW tell us why they are right about all the batshit crazy stuff they believe in!

Brucker said...

I suppose you've not read my post that deals with open-minded questioning of supposed heresy? In it I suggest that the whole "Archangel Michael = Jesus" thing is not actually something so easily dismissed. I would still argue that there are serious issues with JW theology, but I discuss there more or less how dogma should not be allowed to stand in the way of understanding truth. (I assume that's something you would agree with, Steve.)

Steve Wells said...

Brucker,

"I suggest that the whole "Archangel Michael = Jesus" thing is not actually something so easily dismissed."

Cool! Maybe Daystar can find a place for you in heaven. If so, there are 143,998 seats left to fill!

Now you need to get beyond any dogma that prevents you from seeing the obvious truth of Jesus' return in 1914.

But you're close now, Brucker. If you can buy the Jesus=Archangel Michael thing, no bullshit, no matter how obvious, is beyond your belief.

Brucker said...

Heck, I could even believe the SAB! Nah, who am I kidding...