30 March 2010

Jesus

You’ve heard this one before: God killed his son in order to stop himself from torturing people forever after they die for something that someone else supposedly did thousands of years before they were born.

The story is known too well already. So I'm not going to waste any time on it here. There are only two things that you need to know.

1. God killed his own son.
He ... spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all. Romans 8:32
2. He had the whole thing planned from the very beginning.
Ye were not redeemed with corruptible things ... But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world. 1 Peter 1:18-20
It's hard to imagine something worse than a father planning to kill his own son. Except maybe a father killing his son in order to keep himself from torturing billions of others forever.

"He that spared not his own son" shouldn't be trusted by anyone.

31 comments:

Dan said...

I don't think you can count this one because technically it was a suicide. On the other hand, it wasn't even a killing at all since it was only temporary. Which doesn't make any sense, but that fits the main theme like a glove.

Matthew Blanchette said...

It really is indescribable as to why God would do such a thin; perhaps this link, while not providing a "spiritual" explanation, will certainly shed light on a more down-to-earth origin story for the Church: http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/home.htm ;-)

skanksta said...

You're all taking this nonsense too seriously !
I'm going to write to The Queen, nominating Steve for an honorary membership of the Knights of the Garter, for services to logic - the highest honour she can award a foreigner !

Let's hope she's listening.

David said...

Well, it would be a terrible thing to kill your own son, if it were not for the fact that you'd know fully well that your son is going to be hanging out with you in heaven after he gets killed. I mean, isn't that the point of religion? To convince people that death isn't so bad, since you've got eternity to look forward to?

Brucker said...

Dan, even though it might be deemed a suicide, (and either way, Jesus went to the cross willingly) theologically, Jesus was God, so it still counts.

Whatever your theological stripe, I think this is not just a death that can be pinned on God's record, but the most important one of all.

Steve, I would argue that the death of Jesus is also one like the death of Job's children that can be credited to both God and Satan. Jesus dies because of Satan's actions in Genesis 3.

Leor said...

It may sound crazy, but I think that now, after you have finished documenting God's killings in the Bible,you should start documenting the divine murders in the Book Of Mormon.
It looks pretty fun.

Nick said...

The Jesus death thing has always confused me, that Jesus was actually god and he died on the cross and raised himself from the dead and that this sacrifice saved us all from our sins.

Exactly where is the sacrifice in this? He was on the cross for about six hours before he died and then he missed out on three days of life, what a sacrifice, I can see how this would pay for eternity in hell for every person in the world for all time. I wonder how the old testament god would have felt if the people used inflatable sheep for their sacrifice, then just repaired the puncture and reinflated it for the next time.

sattvicwarrior said...

god killing his own son?? no big deal . he wipes out thousands at a whim in assorted biblical passages..
Then .. look at his representatives [ the church] .. and lets not forget the INQUSITION who killed thousands more [ some even for saying the world was round].
sounds more like I would have fun dressing a barbi doll ...

Fernando said...

I always asked myself why god could not forgive mankind without making his son to had his ass kicked, and die slowly in a cross.

Maybe the guys wanted to see some action, some blood ?

sattvicwarrior said...

how does one forgive ignorance ?? or HATE, and cruelty of actions toward others??. those are all personal deamons on the battlefield of ones own mind ,ones "god" has nothing to do with that, but the poor dude ALWAYS gets the blame. The EGO is great for passing the buck so to speak. [ which has nothing to do with god consciousness by the way] and what better icon for the ignorant mind than something you cant see or even experience in the duality of ones own thinking process. [ something the creator is without because of its own omnipotent state] Yet tell that to the sycophant that's locked in archaic dogma [ church doctrine] whose only true footprint in the history of spiritual ideology is nothing more than a trek through a cesspool of mediocrity… I prefer to eat “peeps and chocolate bunnies on Easter. After all god DID give us sugar. Thats what life is all about. CHOICES, not endless torture and hate brought to an incandescent state by the church..

Person0123452 said...

From bruckers link:

"I think omnipotence, while still being omnipotence, is actually limited by logic. I believe there are certain things that are a part of the world that are that way simply because having them not be that way would be absurd."

Wut?
I think that if the author actually understood the concepts of omnipotence and logic, I may be more inclined to accept his opinion on omnipotence and logic.

Also, god had it planned before satan did that (before the foundation of the world) so really I think he was just looking for an excuse to blame it on satan.

Brucker said...

Person0123452, What is the issue that you have with the statement? I am strongly of the belief that (so-called) omnipotence must be limited by certain logical boundaries. For instance, if God is not limited by logic, then He is able to make Himself not exist. This seems silly.

Basically, if one allows for a God that is not limited by logic, then discussions of the nature of such a deity no longer have meaning. In the context of this discussion, for instance, we could say that God could have made Jesus die not for any reason, but just because, since God doesn't need to rely on logic and meaning. Was it unjust or cruel that Jesus had to die? No, because God made it right by His omnipotence. See, arguments no longer have meaning if God has no logic, so I choose to believe that God has logic so that the discussion can continue.

Person0123452 said...

Noun
omnipotence (uncountable)

1. Unlimited power

That is the issue I take with saying that "god's omnipotence is limited".

Plus, if he was limited by logic he would not be that special. The entire point of gods power is that it doesn't matter if it would be "absurd". God can do what he wants according to the bible. If he was limited by logic he would not be "all-powerful" he would merely be "quite powerful".

Brucker said...

Okay, then God says you're wrong. God's not responsible for any killings, because He, using His omnipotent powers, made it so. Discussion over. Wasn't that fun?

Person0123452 said...

That's written in the bible is it brucker?

Brucker said...

That's the beauty of it. I don't even have to look it up, because it doesn't matter whether it's written or not. God, using His omnipotent powers, can simply reveal it to me.

Person0123452 said...

Just like he told bush to go to war right?

Unfortunately for your theory, I don't simply believe stuff without having some evidence to back it up. Part of why I'm not theistic. So even if god were omnipotent, and the bible was true, just because you say he told you doesn't mean it's true. Nowhere in the bible (which for the purposes of this we are assuming is true) does god deny the killings listed, in fact he seems to take much pride in most of them. Steve is counting the killings that are specifically attributed to god.

Also, I agree it makes no sense. I'm an atheist. I think the bible is a load of rubbish. All you're doing by pointing out how stupid it is is simply confirming my belief to me.

skanksta said...

Gotta love Brucker, lol - good to have you back fella !

Brucker said...

According to you, He didn't tell Bush to go to war, He made him go to war, since He's all powerful, but I don't know what this has to do with anything, since our debate is over. If you're an atheist, I'm sure God just made you that way.

Person0123452 said...

You realise that even if I did believe god is omnipotent I don't have to believe he permanently uses his omnipotence right? In actuality he had nothing to do with bush's war, but if he had told bush to go to war, he would have told him, not made him.

Though this is completely outside the point, since the word omnipotence means unlimited power, so saying his omnipotence is limited is ridiculous.

True omnipotence is full of logical contradictions. I personally believe they can be resolved but we don't know everything about certain things, and so are unable to come to logical conclusions about them. Certain things may seem logical to people, but aren't in reality. Questions like "if he's omnipotent couldn't he create a rock that he wouldn't be able to lift?" Whilst we can't come up with something we view as a logical answer, I believe that is because we don't know everything about the nature of the universe.

I would however like you to explain how you can try to resolve logical contradictions and believe in the bible. The bible is full of them.

Brucker said...

>>>Though this is completely outside the point, since the word omnipotence means unlimited power, so saying his omnipotence is limited is ridiculous.<<<

Actually, I'm saying that I've never liked the word "omnipotence" since it implies ridiculousness. Luckily, the word is not to be found anywhere in the Bible, so in being a believer of the Bible, I don't have to accept the argument on your terms. (As a free-thinking individual, I don't even have to accept the argument on the Bible's terms, but that's a whole other can of worms.)

>>>I would however like you to explain how you can try to resolve logical contradictions and believe in the bible. The bible is full of them.<<<

As Steve Wells has often said, dealing with supposed logical contradictions is in many ways the easiest part of an apologist's job. Furthermore, it's been my experience that the average person who says "The Bible is full of [contradictions]" has no idea what they're talking about, and has pretty much never even looked at the Bible. (I find Wells refreshing for at least knowing what he's talking about, despite not agreeing with him.)

Tell me, do you know a "contradiction" in the Bible off the top of your head; or better yet, tell me which of the myriad of "contradictions" present therein personally makes it hard for you to accept the Bible? I'd really like to know.

sattvicwarrior said...

Bruker you say…
? I am strongly of the belief that (so-called) omnipotence must be limited by certain logical boundaries. For instance, if God is not limited by logic, then He is able to make Himself not exist. This seems silly.
.. I say.. your statement is truly silly indeed. Omnipotence cannot be limited by ANYTHING, because it IS everything . your statement is contradictory. One cannot give an identity to that which is beyond duality,and form and consciouisness, and permeates the all. it is because it IS. and can only be experienced and NOT intellectualized.

sattvicwarrior said...

Bruker you say.
Okay, then God says you're wrong. God's not responsible for any killings, because He, using His omnipotent powers, made it so. Discussion over. Wasn't that fun?

.. Bruker,. that wasnt fun at all your REALLY being silly.

sattvicwarrior said...

Bruker you say.
Actually, I'm saying that I've never liked the word "omnipotence" since it implies ridiculousness. Luckily, the word is not to be found anywhere in the Bible,
I say,.
there are a LOT of words not found in the bible. One of them is "common sense"

sattvicwarrior said...

Bruker you say again
Tell me, do you know a "contradiction" in the Bible off the top of your head; or better yet, tell me which of the myriad of "contradictions" present therein personally makes it hard for you to accept the Bible? I'd really like to know.
I say
1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
2. God dwells in chosen temples
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17/ Jer 15:6
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10 God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28
14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31
19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13
20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21
22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered
I think the author of this blog posted that a bazillion years ago . Pretty smart he huh?????

Brucker said...

>>>your statement is truly silly indeed. Omnipotence cannot be limited by ANYTHING, because it IS everything . your statement is contradictory.<<<

Which is why I don't like the term "omnipotent": it carries too much semantic baggage. And since I said "(so-called) omnipotence", with the parenthetical indicating my dislike of the term, I'm curious where you see the contradiction in what I've said.

>>>[...Long list of supposed contradictions...]<<<

Aside from the fact that I was asking Person0123452 to personally answer that question, I put it to you that you have not personally answered it either. Please reread the question.

Person0123452 said...

He answered it well for me. In what way was his answer wrong? You asked for a contradiction, he gave you many.

However, off the top of my head:
God supposedly knows everything, correct? Everything that has and will happen. Yet numerous times in the bible he seems unsure of certain things. For example he doesn't seem to know where Adam and eve are when they hide. He could have been playing around then, but he goes on to punish the serpent for a crime he didn't commit.

He apparently does not regret things, yet he first regretted creating mankind, so he killed them because they were evil. He then regretted killing them, and promised never to do it again, because we are evil.

Explanations please?

Also, it's not contradictions on their own that lead me to not believing the bible. They don't help it's cause, but the reason I don't believe the bible is that I have no reason to do so. Would you believe that harry potter is the divinely inspired word of god if Rowling wrote it in there?

Brucker said...

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. The thing is, I tend to be interested in what personally is an issue for a person with the Bible, rather than a big list of (supposed) contradictions. You've got my curiosity piqued because you've actually got an issue I've never heard before.

The reason God asks Adam and his wife where they are is the same reason that a parent asks their child, "Who knocked over the lamp?" even though they already know who did it. It's a chance for them to come clean and confess.

Now, you're going to have to explain to me what the story is with "...he goes on to punish the serpent for a crime he didn't commit." I've never heard anyone make this claim before, and I'm curious how you make this interpretation.

As for changing his mind about destroying mankind after the flood, my interpretation is here, take it or leave it.

Would I accept Harry Potter books as Holy Scripture? No, but this is a complicated question actually. Obviously, as you've pointed out, Rowling doesn't pretend that they are anything beyond a good story, but suppose she had? Well, unlike other works such as the Bible, Quran, Bhagavad Gita, etc., they doesn't really give any suggestions about how a person may live their life better. (And frankly, a book doesn't have to come from God to do that well, does it?) They also don't give much of an answer to the big questions of life: the WHY questions, not the HOW questions. There are more considerations, but that's a pretty good surface look at what sets them apart.

Person0123452 said...

The story goes something like this:
Serpent: Are you really not allowed to eat from any of the trees?
Eve: We can eat from any tree, except the one in the middle cause if we touch that we'll die.
Serpent: You will not surely die. If you eat it you will know the difference between right and wrong, like god.
Eve: *omnomnom* Here, Adam, try this
Adam: *omnomnom*
They then knew the difference between right and wrong.

What the serpent said was true. I have heard the argument that "well, now people die, so it was false, amirite?" though tbh I don't buy it. If you say "do this and you will die" you would expect that threat to be carried out immediately. I don't consider the threat to have been carried out.

Also, it does not say that the serpent in any pushed her to eat the fruit. He simply commented that he didn't think they would die if they did.

Though you have your opinion on what happened I guess.

Brucker said...

Sure, my view is more or less the standard one. I do find it strange--although interesting--that you don't see the snake as being guilty, since Gen. 3 doesn't explicitly say what the snake is supposed to be guilty of. If anything, when God says "because you have done this," the nearest thing before is Eve's claim that "The serpent beguiled me". I certainly wouldn't argue that the snake forced anybody to do anything, but he arguably tricked them.

Anyway, thanks for sharing; it was thought-provoking.

Srinivasan said...

To Bruckner:

Talking snakes? We are having an "intelligent" discussion about freakin' talking snakes? About whether or not this talking snake is guilty? The only guilty person is the one who believes in talking snakes. Listen to yourself dude!