I'm not sure how this works exactly, but it must be true because both the Bible and the Quran say it is: God and Satan force nonbelievers to disbelieve (and then burn them forever in Hell for not believing).
Here's what the Bible says:
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12And here's the Quran:He [God] hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. John 12:40
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world [Satan] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. 2:6-7Isn't it great to see God and Satan working together so nicely on such an important task?We have placed upon their hearts veils, lest they should understand, and in their ears a deafness. 6:25
As for him whom He sendeth astray, for them thou wilt find no protecting friends beside Him, and We shall assemble them on the Day of Resurrection on their faces, blind, dumb and deaf; their habitation will be hell; whenever it abateth, We increase the flame for them. That is their reward because they disbelieved Our revelations. 17:97-98
Lo! on their hearts We have placed coverings so that they understand not, and in their ears a deafness. And though thou call them to the guidance, in that case they can never be led aright. 18:57
He [Iblis aka Satan] said: Now, because Thou [Allah aka God] hast sent me astray, verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path. ... He said: Go forth from hence, degraded, banished. As for such of them as follow thee, surely I will fill hell with all of you. 7:16-18
I [Iblis] verily shall adorn the path of error for them in the earth, and shall mislead them every one, Save such of them as are Thy perfectly devoted slaves. ...for all such, hell will be the promised place. 15:39-43
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When I realised this a couple of years back, it was the end of any sympathy I had for religious belief. I guess it shifted my disbelief from atheism to anti-theism. How anyone can believe in such a god, I don't know. But of course, believers have an excuse for everything - you've either misunderstood, misinterpreted, or in the case of the Qur'an, mistranslated it.
So just to be sure that satan has enough people to burn, god would purposely 'harden people's hearts' to make sure they don't accidentally turn to him. What a kind and loving god.
Good post, Steve. I don't understand why God would lead people not to believe in him or to break his law, and then condemn them to death for not believing. Sounds like entrapment to me...
Verses like these are a sop to the proselytisers. It's like god is saying to the righteous, "Don't feel too bad when people don't accept your gospel, I've already decided that they won't fit properly in heaven... but keep trying!"
I have only the time and energy to work on one of your statements so I will take the first.
The part you forgot (conveniently) was:
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Th 2:10
Basically, BECAUSE they did not love the truth, he helped them believe their lie.
Steve, God is talking to you here. Because you are not a lover/seeker of truth, he sends you strong delusions to help you believe your own lies.
You know when you work on this blog that you distort the words of the Bible and you know that you have an agenda. Even now, God is helping you believe your own lies.
I pity you. But God loves you.
dawn wrote:
You know when you work on this blog that you distort the words of the Bible and you know that you have an agenda.
I have to disagree here -- Steve, from what I can see, takes the words of the Bible in a completely straightforward way. In fact it's kind of a theme of this blog and the S.A.B.: actually looking at what the bible says.
That's usually why Bible-believers get mad at him, because apparently you're not supposed to do that and it pisses them off royally whenever anybody points out the crazy stuff that's really in there.
It seems to me that the believers are the ones who distort the words of the Bible, to get them to make sense.
Dawn, I too, only, have the time and energy to work on one of your statements so I will take the first.
The part you forgot (conveniently) was:
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Th 2:10
Basically, BECAUSE they did not love the truth, he helped them believe their lie.
Dawn, God is talking to you here. Because you are not a lover/seeker of truth, he sends you strong delusions to help you believe your own lies.
You know when you comment on this blog, that you distort the words of the Bible and you know that you have an agenda. Even now, God is helping you believe your own lies.
I pity you. But God loves you.
Dawn, how do you know god isn't sending you strong delusion to help you believe in your own lies?
--S.
Dawn said: "Basically, BECAUSE they did not love the truth, he helped them believe their lie. "
Dawn, let's assume God exists, and that unbelievers are wrong. Wouldn't a loving God, instead of making an unbeliever even more deluded, help them to see the light and realize the error of their ways? What good does it do to delude them even more?
I remember the first time I committed to reading the Bible. I went into it with all these preconceived ideas, of who the character of god was, and who the character of satan was. God was to be all-loving and the very essence of morality, while satan was all-evil and god's ultimate nemesis. Was I thrown for a loop, when I read the Bible. Not only was god a complete and utter psycho, who causes people to suffer, in vile and unimaginable ways -- he and satan were in cahoots. Nowhere is this more explicit, than it is, in Job.
In the book of Job, god, who is supposedly omniscient, asking satan, "where he's been", reeks of a fairy tale character, who, in league with satan (adversary, which doesn't make sense, if he's helping god), are on the ultimate Punk'd episode, just to fuck with Job. And why does god want to fuck up the innocent, Job? -- just so he can prove a petty, little, point to satan. Is god so insecure that he has to prove his point, by making Job suffer? God is the cosmic equivalent to a juvenile delinquent, who has an ant farm and on some boring, afternoon, day, decides to take an ant out of it's farm and torture it with a magnifying glass. God is the equivalent of the creepy, little kid who ripped the wings off of a fly and removed the legs one by one.
And after god and satan tortures Job and kills his children (sometimes god and sometimes satan, it's hard to tell, at times, who is doing the torturing) he decides to make everything better, restore the faithful Job to his healthier self and with the compassion of a disgusting, demented, dictator, he replaces Job's seven sons and three daughters with an entirely different set of children. I mean what kind of fucked-up, god is this? How can the excruciating pain of losing a child be removed by replacing it with the birth of another? What is god saying? -- that a child is expendable and then replaceable like a lost CD or new ants for the ant farm? God and satan -- the ultimate and vile tag team.
Needless to say, this opened my eyes to the illusion, that is christianity -- I still can't believe a religion was constructed from such insane nonsense.
--S.
Christians, Jews, Mulsims, Mormons: they all claim to seek "truth" but they start from a point of indoctrination. They don't need reason, evidence or rationality... they all claim to have knowledge but can't see they base this claim on nonsense.
They can, of course, see how nonsensical it is for other religions to use revealed truth as a starting point ... but of course there's doesn't suffer the same fatal flaw.
I pity these people. They spend their lives in devotion to mythical lunacy.
rr said Christians, Jews, Mulsims, Mormons: they all claim to seek "truth" but they start from a point of indoctrination. They don't need reason, evidence or rationality... they all claim to have knowledge but can't see they base this claim on nonsense.
They can, of course, see how nonsensical it is for other religions to use revealed truth as a starting point ... but of course there's doesn't suffer the same fatal flaw.
I think that's what's frustrating. As a recovering Christian, I used to think other religions were ridiculous. Then I started to find out there were good and bad things in all religions, including Christianity. Then I actually started reading the Bible...and began to see what little good there is in it is not unique to Christianity at all and a lot of times is modern revisionism, trying to put our morals into the Bible, and not vice-versa.
I think if a lot of people (not everyone, but a lot of people) just took the book they say they believe in and actually read it for themselves, instead of being spoon-fed selected verses, pretty songs, and fancy rituals, then they would see their religion is just as silly as the others. It's my opinion, and I understand if anyone objects to it, but that's how I feel.
sconnor said God is the cosmic equivalent to a juvenile delinquent, who has an ant farm and on some boring, afternoon, day, decides to take an ant out of it's farm and torture it with a magnifying glass.
I think this is a good analogy, and it can be taken a step further: the kid eventually outgrows the ant farm and just abandons it. God got bored with us, so he's totally ignored us for the past 2000 years.
If he did exist and acted the way he did in the Bible, I'd be kind of glad he's forgotten about us.
Superficial examination of scripture used to reinforce your already held point of view.
2Th 2:10 God shall send them the operation of error.[9] That is, says St. John Chrysostom and St. Cyril, he will permit them to be led away with illusions, by signs, and lying prodigies, which the devil shall work by antichrist, &c. (Witham) --- God shall suffer them to be deceived by lying wonders, and false miracles, in punishment of their not entertaining the love of truth. (Challoner) --- The end God proposes is the judgment and condemnation of such as reject the proffered light. This is the march of sin, according to St. Thomas Aquinas on this place. In the first place a man, in consequence of his first sin, is deprived of grace, he then falls into further sins, and ends with being eternally punished. Hence it happens that his new sins are a punishment of his former transgressions; because God will permit the devil to do these things. Deus mittet, quia Deus Diabolum facere ista permittet. (St. Augustine, lib. xx. de Civ. Dei. chap. 19.)
Joh 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, &c. See Matthew xiii. 14. (Witham) --- God blinded the Jews, not by filling them with malice, but by refusing them his graces, of which they had made themselves unworthy, and which they before abused and despised. It was their perverse will, their pride, presumption, and obstinacy, that brought on them this judgment. (St. Augustine)
2Co 4:3 The apostle here brings another proof of the sincerity of his preaching, viz. the success with which it is attended: And he says, if there be any who have not yet received it, that is their own fault. For had they been as eager to receive it, as we have been to announce it to them, the whold world had long since been converted. (Theodoret)
2Co 4:4 In whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers.[1] Thus the words are placed, both in the Latin and Greek text, so that the true God seems to be called the God of this world, as he is elsewhere called the God of heaven, the God of Abraham. God, says St. John Chrysostom, blinded, that is, permitted them to be blinded. Others translate, in whom God hat blinded the minds of the infidels of this world; so that this world may be joined with unbelievers, and not with God: and by the God of this world, some understand the devil, called sometimes the prince of this world, that is, of the wicked. (Witham)
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