25 November 2010

50 reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus

There's a group in the United States called Not a Fan that encourage Christians to show that they aren't ashamed of Jesus (no matter how badly he behaved in the gospels) by being not just fans, but fanatics.

But every believer should be ashamed of Jesus and no one should be his fan. It's time for us all to defriend him.

Here are some reasons to be ashamed (and not a fan) of Jesus.

  1. He told his followers to hate their families.
    If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26
  2. He came to break apart families.
    I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. Matthew 10:35-36
    The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Luke 12:51-53
  3. He insisted that his followers love him more than anyone else (including their families).
    He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Matthew 10:37
  4. He encouraged people to abandon their home and family for his name's sake.
    And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. Matthew 19:29, Mark 10:29-30, Luke 18:29-30
  5. He was rude to his own family.
    Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! Matthew 12: 47-49, Mark 3:31-34, Luke 8:20-21
  6. He was dismissive of other people's feelings toward their families.
    And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. Matthew 8:21-22, Luke 9:59-62
  7. He discouraged marriage.
    They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage. Luke 20:35
  8. He was a hypocrite. He told his followers not to call anyone a fool.
    Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22
    Yet he often called his critics and disciples fools.
    Ye fools and blind. Matthew 23:17, 19
    Ye fools. Luke 11:40
    O fools, and slow of heart to believe. Luke 24:25
  9. He encouraged his followers to mutilate themselves to avoid hell.
    Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out ... And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Matthew 5:28-30
    If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. Matthew 18:8-9
    And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off ... And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off ... And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:43-48
  10. He encouraged men to castrate themselves.
    There are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. Matthew 19:12
  11. He approved of God's killings in the Bible.
    And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words ... It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Matthew 10:14-15
    But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:37
    As it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man ... the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot ... the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all ... Remember Lot's wife. Luke 17:26-32
    As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: John 3:14
  12. He believed in the Old Testament's stories.
    But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:37, Luke 17:27
    But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. ... Remember Lot's wife. Luke 17:29-32
    For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40
  13. He accepted Old Testament laws.
    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17
  14. He criticized the Pharisees for not killing parent-cursing children.
    God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. Matthew 15:4
    Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death. Mark 7:10
  15. He and his dad plan to torture billions of people forever after they die.
    Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Matthew 7:19
    Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28
    The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42
    So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:49-50
    Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41
    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment. Matthew 25:46
    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16
    Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. Luke 12: 5
  16. He implied that all Jews are going to hell.
    But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 8:12
  17. He was a false prophet.
    Verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Matthew 10:23
    Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27
    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32
    Behold, I come quickly. Revelation 3:11, 22:7, 22:11, 22:20
  18. He was a warmonger.
    Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34, Luke 12:51-53
    And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Revelation 19:11
  19. He was a megalomaniac.
    Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed. Mark 8:38
    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God ... he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:18, 36
    If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:16
  20. He condemned cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching.
    Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! ... And thou, Capernaum ... shalt be brought down to hell ... it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. Matthew 11:21-24
    Whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Mark 6:11
    But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not ... it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! ... And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell. Luke 10:10-15
  21. He called an entire generation perverse, evil, adulterous vipers.
    O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? ... Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign. Matthew 12:34-39, 16:4
    Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation.... 17:17
  22. He invented George W. Bush's false dichotomy.
    He that is not with me is against me. Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:230
  23. He approved of torture.
    And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. Matthew 18:34-35
  24. He inspired the Republican Tea Party.
    Whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Matthew 13:12, Mark 4:25
    Unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. Matthew 25:29
  25. He believed in an unforgivable sin.
    Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men ... whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Matthew 12:31-32, Mark 3:29, Luke 12:10
  26. He spoke in parables to confuse people so he could send them to hell.
    And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. Mark 4:11, Matthew 13:10-15
  27. He believed in a God (himself?) who had his enemies slaughtered in front of him.
    But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. Luke 19:27
  28. He believed in devils, evil eyes, and unclean spirits.
    Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying ... cast out devils. Matthew 10:5-8
    Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him. Matthew 12:22
    And Jesus rebuked the devil. Matthew 17:18
    And he ... cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him. Mark 1:34
    Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils. Luke 9:1
    And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God. And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known. Mark 3:11-12
    An evil eye ... defile the man. Mark 7:22-23
    But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. Matthew 6:23, Luke 11:34
    There was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit ... And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. Mark 1:23-25
    He gave them power against unclean spirits. Matthew 10:1
    When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation. Matthew 12:43-45, Luke 11:24-26
  29. He was a bit of a racist.
    The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. Mark 7:26-27, Matthew 15:22-26
  30. He condemned people to hell for things that their ancestors supposedly did.
    Ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. ... Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? ... Upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Matthew 23:31-35
  31. He got kind of gross sometimes.
    And he ... put his fingers into his ears, and he spit, and touched his tongue. Mark 7:33
    He took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. Mark 8: 23
    He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay. John 9:6
    Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life ... For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him ... He that eateth me, even he shall live by me. John 6:53-57
  32. He approved of slavery (or at least didn't object to it) and said that God is like a slave owner who beats his slaves and sells families to pay for debts.
    And a certain centurion's servant [slave], who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant. ... When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick. Luke 7:2-10
    And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Luke 12:47
    The kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. Matthew 18:23-25
  33. Someday he'll fight against people with a sword sticking out of his mouth.
    Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. Revelation 2:16
    And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. ... And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Revelation 19:15, 21
  34. He threatens to kill children (with death).
    I will kill her children with death. Revelation 2:23
  35. He's going to kill billions of people with his sickle.
    Upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. ,,, And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. ... And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. Revelation 14:14-20
  36. He unnecessarily killed 2000 pigs.
    And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters. Matthew 8:30-32
    And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine ... And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea. Mark 5:12-13
    Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked. Luke 8:33
  37. He killed a fig tree by cursing it. (Because it didn't have any fruit that he could eat.)
    When he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. Matthew 21:19
    And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. Mark 11:13-14
  38. He didn't know much about Biology.
    It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it. Mark 4:31-32
  39. He lied about prayer.
    Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Matthew 17:20
    That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. Mark 11:23-24
    Whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do. John 14:13-14, 15:7, 15:16, 16:23
    If ye have faith, and doubt not ... if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Matthew 21:21-22
    If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. Luke 17:6
  40. He said some stupid things.
    All things are possible to him that believeth. Mark 9:23
    Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Luke 10:19
    That which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15
    Some of you shall they cause to be put to death ... but there shall not an hair of your head perish. Luke 21:16-18
    Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. Luke 21:23
    He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. John 7:38
    And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world ... that they which see might be made blind. John 9:39
    He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. John 12:25
  41. He talked complete nonsense about the end of the world.
    Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. ... In those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. Mark 13:8, 24-25, Matthew 24:3-30, Luke 21:10-11
  42. He said that everyone who lived before him was a thief and a robber.
    All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers John 10:8
  43. His neighbors rejected him.
    Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? And they were offended in him. Matthew 13:55-57, Mark 6:3
    Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? John 6:42
  44. Many that saw him up close and personal thought he was mad and possessed by a devil.
    Many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? John 10:20
  45. His family didn't believe in him.
    For neither did his brethren believe in him. John 7:5
  46. His friends thought he was insane.
    And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. Mark 3:21
  47. He said that his true followers would cast out devils, speak in tongues, handle snakes, and drink poisons.
    And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:17-18
  48. He said that disbelievers will be tormented forever in hell.
    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16
  49. He dresses kind of funny.
    The Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass ... and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword. Revelation 1:13-16
    The Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass Revelation 2:18
    His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood ... And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword ... And ... on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:12-16
  50. He is the living dead with keys to hell and death.
    I am he that liveth, and was dead... and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:13-16


RsD said...

Only 28 reasons, Steve? Are you slipping or just laying the groundwork for your next book?

Steve Wells said...

Well, it's a start, RsD. I'm sure there are quite a few that I've missed. I'll add them as I find them.

C Woods said...

I am always amazed at the vast research you do for your posts. Thanks for all your work. Great stuff to use when when gets into a discussion with a believer.

I defriended Jesus about 50 years ago.

When I was a kid, "What a Friend We Have in Jesus" was one of my favorite hymns. I just looked up the lyrics ---what rubbish.

I learned I can get the first stanza of the song as a ring tone. I'll pass on that.

J. said...

You forgot this one Steve.

Steve Wells said...

Thanks, J. That's a good one.

I'm sure there's plenty more out there. Jesus is a lot like Sarah Palin. He should have been fully vetted before being selected as the messiah.

Unknown said...

Not a fan of religion, but some of these are CLEARLY misinterpretations. I doubt there will be a literal sword hanging out of Christ's mouth.

I thought we were opposed to literalism.

Steve Wells said...

Really, Oz? Some of these are CLEARLY misinterpretations? Which ones in particular?

I'd love to hear the correct interpretation of Revelation 19:15, 21. Will Jesus kill people with a metaphorical sword that sticks out of his mouth? Would that be OK with you?

I thought we were opposed to literalism.

Whose the "we" here? I take the Bible seriously and I don't try to find excuses for it when it says things that are cruel, nasty, and absurd (which is almost always). A person who isn't a fan of religion shouldn't cover up for it.

Maureen said...

Aha, great... I can check that one off my list now. I was wondering what to do about the whole Jesus question but you just answered it very nicely for me. Thanks :)

Unknown said...

This is just so fantastic. I have really come to despise people who say things like, "Well I don't believe in Jesus, but he was a great moral teacher." WTF?

Kaylanamars said...

I remember reading or learning about those passages in seminary/institute or at church and thinking that was pretty messed up but they were always apologized away...Oh, Jesus didn't really mean to hate your parents...just that you need to love god more and uh...the sword bit is talking about the second coming and uh....the fig tree...well, he was using it as a metaphor for what will happen to you when you don't do what he asks, yeah, that's it....ummm. Yup, pretty messed up. It's been under a year for me since I officially defriended the possibly imaginary man.

Anonymous said...

Which ones are clearly misinterpretations? Well, the first several. Talk to anyone who counts as a religious scholar (i.e. someone who knows his Bible but also talks unashamedly about JEPD) and they will tell you that all that bit about hating your family, putting Jesus first, etc. was a challenge to first-century Semitic clan-based concepts of loyalty. In other words, if you're going to treat all men like brothers in good Samaritan-like fashion, that has to come before clan loyalties and traditional animosities. Is that going to make you well-loved in your clan? Most likely not. But then again, a man really can't serve two masters, and Jesus was letting his flock know what to expect if they're going to be serious about following his teachings.

I see the one about bringing a sword eventually made the list too, at #16. See above.

And also, "He believed in the Old Testament's stories" ... really? That's what you're going with? You actually expect one fictional character in a story to tell other characters, "Guys, all the stuff that happened in chapters 1-3 was fiction"?

Unknown said...

Just curious, if the three gospels you quote the most from, (Luke, Mark, and Matthew) were written about 50 years after Jesus was alive, and all basically copying each other. Also that the Bible has been constructed over centuries by those in power, is it fair to say Jesus was, said or did "x" I am not an advocate of religion, but just trying to wrap my head around how critiques of the Bible are constructed.

11-year old Atheist-Libertarian said...

@jenn I think he is talking about the Biblical Jesus. If Jesus existed he was probably way unlike the one in the Bible.

Fatman said...

This sort of morbid idiocy always leaves me in utter confusion... really, have any of the religulous people even read the Bible? And if they have, how does a sane person believe in that fluff? Oh wait.... sane people don't. Never mind.

Alan said...

You wasted a lot of time and energy on a nothing. Go back up the chain a bit. There is no such thing as a god (that's a given) so logically there can be no son of that god. End of story.
Therefor critiquing a book which is nothing more than plagerism of much earlier attempts to scare ignorant people into being good is not a good use of your time.
EGYPT 3000bc
Born on Dec 25th
Born of a virgin
Star in the east
Teacher at 12
Baptized ministry at 30, had 12 disciples.

Born of a virgin on Dec 25th
Dead 3 days and ressurected.

PERSIA 1200bc
Born of a virgin on Dec 25th
12 desciples, performed miracles
Dead 3 days then ressurected
sunday worship.

It's all been done before, why worry about this latest one?

RsD said...

Spaceman, with the only "proof" of a historical Jesus being the Bible, it's really silly to let Oz and their ilk even make the claim that the real Jesus wasn't like the one in the Bible.

Without the Bible, Jesus goes from approximately a 5% chance of ever having existed to way less than a 1% chance.

Shawn said...

@Fatman I know just what you mean. I recently mentioned to a very religious colleague of mine that I had read the Bible cover to cover. His reply was something along the lines of "Really? The Bible? I haven't even done that."

Exactly, I thought. Exactly.

Steve Wells said...

Horus, Attis, and Mithra have few followers today, whereas Jesus has more than 2 billion. So I don't think it's a "waste of time and energy" to address them.

Maybe you should start your own blog on Horus, Attis, Mithra, et al. That way you wouldn't have to waste your time reading mine.

Maureen said...

Alan - because people like myself grew up indoctrinated with belief in Jesus and it can be hard to let go. This post that Steve has put together really helped me to solidify why I need to let go. (Even after having discovered all of the Horus characters!). It takes time to undo 30 years of believing something.

skanksta said...

Another clarion of clarity from Steve - stick that up your pipe and smoke it C.S. Lewis !
I bet you're jealous that it's the Christians that are embarrassed to 'come out' in the UK !?
I shall be using your blog to help make it stay that way...

11-year old Atheist-Libertarian said...

@RsD I don't believe Jesus ever existed. However, IF he existed it's unlike the Jesus of the Bible.

Unknown said...

kingbeauregard -
You would think a divinely-inspired work would be timeless and more clear, don't you think? And he didn't say clan, he named specific family members. I swear I can't recall him saying "Oh, and a lot of this stuff is metaphorical. You can only understand it by suspending your reason and believing in me, then it will make sense."

twillight said...

Wow Steve, 50? That's a hugh boost compared to the list you started with. (I wonder how close this list will reach the "ways to save yourself" list.)

@Shawn: same thing happened me with priests of christianity. THAT was a surprise.

Unknown said...

I can't believe the insanity by which you take the majority (if not all) of these passages out of context and interpret them incorrectly. In fact, I have a feeling you have a much better understanding of the Bible than what you've written. So what gives for you to say such things? It doesn't make sense to me, because what you've written is ridiculous.

Steve Wells said...

That's great, Just me! Now that you're here you can tell us the correct, in-context interpretation of all the shit Jesus said. How about picking one to start with. (I'd like them all explained if you have time.)

Oh heck, I'll pick one for you. When Jesus said that you must hate your entire family and yourself to be his disciple in Luke 14:26, he didn't mean it, right? (Jesus never meant what he said or said what he meant.) So what did he mean to say? And why didn't he say it if that's what he meant?

atheistcarealotaboutus said...

Let's be honest, no non-believers here are actually seeking to hear an interpretation that doesn't agree with theirs, it is a waste of time for anyone who believes in Christ to try and explain anything, Steve you don't seek anything beyond what you and those that agree with you already believe to be true, no interpretation will satisfy you, because your mind is made up, by the way that marriage article was a joke, I like how you avoided all the scripture in between that refute your claims, anyway why do so many non-believers give a damn?
that's my question for you

Steve Wells said...

Let's be honest, atheistcarealotaboutus. You are ashamed of Jesus.

You don't know why he said the stupid things that he said and you wish he hadn't said them. It's embarrassing! Take the first one on the list, for example. Jesus said that you must hate your family in order to be his disciple. You believe that you should love your family, so you ignore Luke 14:26 and pretend that Jesus didn't say it. Or you admit that he said it but claim that he didn't mean what he clearly said. Or maybe I'm wrong and you have another explanation. If so, let me know.

You say that my Christian marriage post "was a joke." I'd love to hear why you think it was so funny. Believers are always telling me how I misinterpret scripture, yet they aren't willing to present the "correct" interpretation. But maybe you'll be willing to give it a try.

Anonymous said...

You're supposed to love Christ first(it's supposed to be your number one priority), which is hatred in the eyes of the world.

Hey I put my family before certain friends, certain friends before my family, certain ethics before others(the golden rule is a secondary ethic, and utilitarianism is a tertiary ethic).

So yeah.

Steve Wells said...

No, Samuel, you're supposed to hate your family. If you don't hate your family, you can't be Jesus' disciple.

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

Sorry about that.

Unknown said...

@Steve Wells
In this case, Jesus says that one's love for God must be so great that the love he or she has for family looks like hatred by comparison.

The idea is that one must not be tied to family or himself in order to be a disciple of Christ.

This is one of the many drawbacks of translation in languages. Much of the original meaning and cultural context in many verses is lost in ways English cannot recover.

Anonymous said...

No *Steve* I came to Christ knowing full well that I hated my family, in fact I despised them utterly, and what love I did have for them was in vain.

"If any man come to me".

Loving Christ made me overflow with love in general.

but were my family, or friends or whatever, sent to hell, I wouldn't miss them one bit, because I'm utterly satisfied in christ.

Markus Arelius said...

Samuel, you said:

"were my family, or friends or whatever, sent to hell, I wouldn't miss them one bit, because I'm utterly satisfied in christ"

I'm ok with this (I don't believe in hell, but I get your desire for them to experience pain/suffering/revenge) if this is how you feel. It's your life. But be honest. You can surely understand how others outside your life's perspective might view your statement as selfish and negative. You can see why some would refuse to align with it/share it. "Hate" is a very strong word that most people don't want to be associated with. You might hate your family, while others might like or even love them. Not easy to reconcile personal feelings of hatred because the world is not only about you or me

I do believe that Jesus is being crystal clear with his word choice here. Normally, not a problem - until such beliefs start informing our actions. To leave someone be and hate them with a passion from a distance - not great, but workable, I guess. Now bring the person you hate into closer proximity and who knows what might happen. War, murder, attack. Not so good.

Christians I have spoken too (I used to be a Lutheran myself) frequently talk about the martyrdom aspect and the everybody else (the world!) being irreparably "evil" - i.e. those outside the Christian circle will never accept Christ and therefore are incapable of understanding Jesus. It's the perfect out. The perfect way to avoid criticism and continue with the belief and the actions informed by them.

You can believe what you want, but I would come to expect a lot of criticism and ridicule going forward.

Fatman said...

Just me. wrote:

"In this case, Jesus says that one's love for God must be so great that the love he or she has for family looks like hatred by comparison."

If we manage to move past the fact that your "explanation" makes even less sense than the original version, we still have to deal with the fact that what you wrote can in no way be inferred from the actual bit in the Bible, even if one allows for a lot of room for interpretation, hidden meanings, etc., etc.

But if you ever get the chance to re-write this ridiculous piece of hate-inspiring fiction, make sure you change that part, I like your version much better.

Samuel McNamara wrote:

"but were my family, or friends or whatever, sent to hell, I wouldn't miss them one bit, because I'm utterly satisfied in christ."

I will paraphrase poster "Just me.": In this case, Samuel McNamara's post was so idiotic that its utter lack of sense and sociopathic overtone make Just me.'s post look like a sensible explanation by comparison.

But thank you both for confirming my opinion on people who take this sort of absurd drivel seriously. Who said we have nothing to learn from each other? :)

11-year old Atheist-Libertarian said...

"This is one of the many drawbacks of translation in languages."
-Just Me

Just Me, people who translate the Bible try really hard to get the correct message of the Bible.

skanksta said...


I don't know if this can be used as one of your text-based, direct quotes, but perhaps...

"Jesus acquiesced to slavemasters"

I remember a bible story from school - around 10 years old - that troubled me about Jesus...

He gets asked to heal a slave by a (kindly) slavemaster. I assumed Jesus was going to set the slave free, but he just healed him - back to a life of slavery !

Even at that age it bothered me a lot that Jesus didn't MENTION slavery at that point. It would have been the ideal time to stir up morality, make people think of true goodness etc. Perhaps, even some money-lending temple-table-tipping action ??

But no, he did bugger all.
Poor show, from the 'light of the world' !

Steve Wells said...

Thanks, skansta. I added the story from Luke 7 about the centurion's slave to #32.

Mic said...

Superb! 50 Reasons I never saw it like this. You opened my eyes - thanks

There are some here, [I'm looking at you Alan and atheistcarealotaboutus]
that are bothered by this reveal of the truth.

It matters!

Whatever the religion/belief, it is irrelevant that it is just a made-up story, the fact is there are powerful people who actually believe this crap and make life and death decisions,not for themselves because then I couldn't give a damn, but for other innocent people. You see the leaders of all religions, never put themselves in harms way. So they send lackeys to die in vain.

It affects us all, be it a belief to fly planes into buildings or to ban a life saving procedure because some god kinda, sorta says so. They interfere with mature consenting adults lifestyles which hurt no-one and they deny the progress of science because its anti-god. Imagine, just close your eyes and really imagine what life would be like if someone like Palin was president or if the Taliban was the norm in the Muslim world. Yeah you get the picture.

Does anybody know of a radical crazy group of scientists that advocates the wholesale burning of books about I.D.? Or what about a group of professors that want us to go backward in our progress and trying to ram it down our throats? Has there ever been an unspeakable act by normal decent hardworking folks trying to tear down a country by the most insane methods imaginable? No?

An old saying: For evil to flourish, good men/women do nothing. If this author and others are fighting the good fight,then good on them - its help me see things more clearly and in perspective.

Nathan said...

The problem here is both context of scriptures but also the point of reference by which you view Jesus. IF Jesus did exist, and IF Jesus was God in the flesh, and IF Jesus has always been from eternity past then for him to demand allegiance, send blasphemers to eternal torment, and rule and reign when he returns wouldn't be crazy or hateful but would be logical because he isn't just some other human being. He's God. And that makes a HUGE difference. Then his law isn't out of insecurity or hate but out love and holiness. If anyone else on this blog made the claims that Christ did in the Scriptures then that person would undoubtedly be a self-absorbed egomaniac. But Jesus is unlike any person on this blog. He is, and claimed to be, God in the flesh. I'm not here to start an argument or contribute to one for that matter. I am, however, here to pose a view point that maybe has been overlooked by a presupposition that Christ is fictional which would then be completely irresponsible to the evidence both historical and circumstantial. Grace and peace to you.

Mic said...

Nathan, a very humanistic point of view on the authority to God. It would seem that [according to your logic] anyone in authority has the right to crush their dissenters with an iron fist because of awesome power. Like Idi Amin, Kimmy Jong Il and every other despot who have littered history with their cruel behaviour simply because they could. Or are you saying that ONLY God can be like this because it is out of love and holiness! Isn't that hypocrisy? Many abusive priests say the same thing to justify such heinous acts. Would you say these despots behave like they do because of insecurity or hate, and yet God who does the same thing does not?
As humans we are prone to abusive dominance when we are put in a place of supreme power and control [The Stanford Experiment, Abu Ghraib, abusive priests and every arsehole boss] so your defense of God is very human indeed. Maybe God really did create us since we truly reflect this behaviour, which you seem to say is divine.

1 Corinthians 13 v4-8 talks about what love is. Can you honestly say that God's nature and ALL his acts/decrees etc [and it must be consistent throughout history/bible] matches up with Paul's definition? Now be honest, because lying is a sin!

So it is even worse IF Christ is real and behaves like this because then he is just another despot with absolute power.

Unknown said...

JESUS EXISTS! His name is Jesus Ramirez and he's my neighbor!

...Oh you mean THAT Jesus? Whoops, he's some Bedouin tribesman's brainfart.

Anonymous said...

Lol at Jesus killing "with death." Reminds me of Superboy Prime.

Magick1369 said...

Jesus is a mythological figure and this becomes obvious to anyone that has studied the archetypes of the unconscious and comparative religions. Christianity is the biggest farce and lie ever perpetrated on the human race. The church created the mythological Jesus and historicized him when they created their salvation dogma. The salvation dogma gave the church immense political power because the church asserted that it alone has authority over human's souls. The stupid Catholic church still makes this claim. The problem is Christianity and its falsehood and mythological nature and the fact that most humans are at a low level of intellectual and spiritual development and have no developed discernment. Such simpletons take everything at face value and interpret all of reality literally. They are incapable of discerning allegory and mythology from literal history. You would think that humans would have smartened up by now and abandoned their silly gods and myths...especially seeing the disastrous psychological effects Christianity has caused the human race. The "believe or else fry in hell" teaching is alone enough to cause one mental torment.

The Guy Who Says Things said...

#14 was a bad example but I'm right about SAB

Steve Wells said...

#14 was a bad example but I'm right about SAB

Do you have a good example, Abemore?

You say you're right about the SAB. You mean that it was "written by the dumbest person in the world"?

Tom VonOxford said...

To Abemore:
Knock off your context bullshit. No true atheist motherfucker would ever use the "context" argument. You are a damn Christian aren't you? A wolf in sheep's clothing.

Please explain how context changes this:
"Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death. Mark 7:10"

Amazing - in this one phrase we see not one but two of the Bible's heros advocating the murder of your children for sass.

The real context is that 1500 years ago, that same Moses said "Thou shalt not kill". So there's context for you.

Oh - out of context. Sorry. Educate me on the context so that I will be able to interpret it correctly. Quick - my kid just sassed me and I'm about to kill him. I don't really want to but luminaries no less than Moses AND Mark and Matthew have said I should.

BTW Abemore,
Your innane comment "The integrity of your article fails because you built it on the flimsy foundation of SAB, and that's a shame. makes YOU the stupidest person I have ever heard. It is a non sequitur(that means there is no correlation {relation} between the context {discourse that surrounds a language unit} of the original discussion and what you said.

And how is quoting from the SAB introducing bad context? It repeats what the Holy Babble says - the problem is with the Holy Babble, not a copy of it. The "flimsy foundation" upon which the SAB is built is the Holy Babble, you moron.

Ratman said...


Excuse me, but you are just repeating some lousy pieces of information that you most likely found on some lousy sub-standard website.

Let me remind you that;

a) Horus WAS NOT born of a virgin. Isis was Married to Osiris. The latter had been killed and cut into 14 pieces. Because Isis couldn't find his penis, she fashioned him a substitue phallus and attached it to his corpse (she had brought together all the other pieces his body had been cut into) after which she had sex with her husband's reassembled revived body and that's how Horus was conceived. Also, Horus' had MORE than 12 disciples and he was born in October or November, pr at least that's when Egyptians would celebrate his birth.

b)Attis' birth doesn't exclude sexuality. According to the legend, Agdistis-who was a demon with both male and female sexual organs-had his/her/its penis cut off by the gods and cast away. From his detached penis an almond tree grew. A young woman called Nana(the legend doesn't tell us if she was a virgin or not) picked one of the almonds that had fallen from the tree and placed it in her bosom. Not long after, the seed disappeares and to her amazement she finds out that she is pregnant with Attis. We are left to believe that the almond, which was metaforically speaking Agdisti's sperm, impregnanted her. In any case, Attis' conception involves sexuality and it can't be compared to Christ's virginal non-sexual conception. Also, this recount dates from the second century BC, whereas the Judeo-Christian prophecy of the Messiah's being born of a virgin predates the recount on Attis' birth by 6-7 centuries. If anything, you can accuse that the legend of Attis' birth was stolen from the Old Testament, and not the other way around.

3) Mithra wasn't born of a virgin. As a matter of fact, he emerged from a ROCK, not from a human being. You are confusing Mithra with Zorozaster's son (who is said to be the messiah) who, according to the legend, will be born of a virgin. However, the legend specifies that Zoroaster's sperm, which is preserved in a lake, will impregnate the young virgin as she is bathing in that lake. This doesn't compare with Christ's conception since Mary wasn't impregnated seminally. What's more, this recount dates from the 9th century AD, it post-dates Christ's times by almost a millenium, if anything you can accuse Persians of stealing elements from Christianity, and not the other way around.
Also, Mithra is depicted in the middle of twelve ZODIACAL SIGNS, tying these signs to Christ's twelve Apostles is far-fetched if you ask me.

If you have something PERSONAL against Christianity I suggest you should just ignore it and stop trying to damage its reputation by flinging accusations at it and backing them up with pieces of ”evidence” that are just your own biased (and erroneous) interpretations of different historical facts. It just shows that you're a pitiful simpleton consumed by hatred.

Ratman said...

@ Steve

Is it me or have you just googled your information on Christ ? Have you actually READ the New Testament, from beginning to end ? You are conveniently taking those quotes out of the context they were first formulated in.
Let me remind you that;

1)Christ said that whoever wished to be HIS DISCIPLE had to go as far as to everyone except Him. The key word here is DISCIPLE. Not everyone satisfied all the criteria to be Christ's disciple. What does it take to be a disciple of Christ? To be a fool for Christ, not to care about anything and anyone else. Christ has to be everything for you-your mother, your father, your friends, your spouse, your children, your clothes, your food, everything. This wasn't expected of everyone, since many people asked Christ to allow them to become His disciples and He wouldn't have them join His congregation.

2) Christ stated that he didn't come to cater to men. He came to tell it as it was, the cold hard truth. His cousin, John the Baptizer, did the same thing and became a nuisance for many people. Christ came to do away with sin, and in order to do that He had to make people aware of their sinful condition. The Jews were expecting a messiah that would praise the people of Israel and wage war against the Roman invaders who had taken control of the Jewish nation by force. Christ wasn't the messiah they were expecting, He criticized the Jews and befriended many pagans, broke many Jewish customs and went as far as to claim He was God. So of course, in this context Christ is a conflictual character.

3) He didn't treat His family badly. In the Old Testament Mary is seen as an Emperess, sitting at Christ's right hand.

[9] Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

Jesus made sure Mary would be taken care of by John, the Apostle He loved most.

[26] When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
[27] Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

In reality Mary was Christ's only relative. He didn't have a family.

4) Christ wasn't a hypocrite. He was allowed to criticize whomever He wanted since he was God.

5) What do you have to say about the fact that He also:

a) forgave His enemies
b) sat at the same table as sinners and didn't reprove them for their sinful lives, he talked to them and listened to what they had to tell Him,
c) said that we should do to others what we would have them do to us
d) took human form and became vulnerable to diseases, pain and death
e) gave His life for the world

What do you have to say about these quotations :

” Whoever is forgiven much, loves much ”

” Forgive others if you would want your heavenly Father to forgive you ”

” Love your brother as yourself”

” Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye but fail to see the beam that is in yours ?”

I like Christ. I love Christ. No other God descended from the heavens to dine and converse with sinners and hear what they had to say. And no other God offers His people His own Flesh and Body as food. My God suffered for me, it's not easy to be crucified and endure that pain without hating those who have nailed you to the the cross. Yet Christ didn't hate anyone. Christ is a better person than your people, who wouldn't even lift a straw to help me when I need to be helped. I guess Christ is just too good for your people since He calls into question everything they support: the use of drugs, sexual decadence, selfishness, greed, irresponsibility, etc. You feel threatened by Christ, don't you ?

Ratman said...

@ Tom

You need to understand that the OLD TESTAMENT is replaced with the NEW TESTAMENT, therefore some of the commandments from the OT disappear in favor of the new ones.

[6] But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
[7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
[8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
[9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
[10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The two Testaments are as different as day and night.

Mic said...

Well said Maureen!

Mic said...

@Ratman, sounds like you are a Catholic, if you are, then you will have all the Evangelical, born again types on your back.

"The two Testaments are as different as day and night." and

"In the Old Testament Mary is seen as an Emperess, sitting at Christ's right hand."

Seems like you need to tighted up your argument, maybe you are just tired from the gattling gun waffle you just finished.

And all those other virtues you mentioned as though Christians/Christ have the exclusive franchise on these, well all manner of people are like this; muslims, jews,buddhist, bikies, mothers, atheists, my pet dog etc. On the flip side some of the cruellest and vile acts have been done by Catholics, Christians, God, Allah, atheists muslims,jews mothers, bikies etc but not my pet dog.

The point is these virtues mean nothing as far as divine influence and are part of the human condition, no matter who your are.

Jesus' friend said...

The bible is meant for study. If you study it you will understand. The Satan that you worship is blinding you to only hear what you want to hear . Jesus is God and He loves us all. He wants you to hate sin and love Him. He wants you to repent. He spoke in parables so you would go study His word and understand it. He didnt want the enemy to realize why He came because satan would have tried to stop the death on the cross if satan had known the truth. Jesus fulfilled the law because He covered all of the worlds sin. He made a new covenant with us. He said love Him with all you heart soul mind and strength and love your neighbor (other people, enemies) as yourself. If you do these two things then you won't steal from them or murder them or commit adultery or lie and so on. Jesus is the light of men and he wishes none to perish. He is a just God and if He wasn't just then we could do whatever we wanted and there would be no consequences for our actions. That is why Jesus came and died on the cross for you and everyone in the world because He wants us to live with Him in heaven and not go to an eternal hell where there will be an eternal separation from God. If Jesus hadn't died on the cross as the perfect sacrifice then we would still have to sacrifice animals for our sin and we would be imperfect to stand in front of God on judgement day. God requires perfection to be in His presence and we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Jesus paid your fine by dying on the cross so that you can live with Him some day in heaven. He did exist. Isaiah of the bible prophesied Jesus' coming. Also Jeremiah. Ezekialis the prophesy of what is happening right now in the end times. The Christians scholars believe we are on Ezekiel 37 and 38 right now. Research the bible. Try to listen and comprehend what you read in the bible. It is a beautiful picture of why we need a savior.

Mic said...

Wow thanks Jesus' friend! You have swayed me and convinced me, I'm ready to be born again......But there is one thing I'm hung up on. Your almost nonchalant statement about how we are Satan worshipers, has snag me on the road to salvation. The problem is, there are plenty of people just as passionate and committed as you,(and probably more holy) who would say the god you worship is in fact satan.

Herein is the start of most wars and the motivation and justification to commit the most inhumane acts ever imagined to a fellow human being.

Also why would God give a flying monkey shit and being all scared about Satan stopping the crucifixion. According to your lore he is the most powerful entity in the Universe and can do whatever he wants. So like so many things about religion, your reasoning made no sense.

I think you need to listen and comprehend your own myths and some common sense.

Kind Regards
Satan's Friend.

Anonymous said...

No Jesus fan, but most points are rather weak

Aquaria said...

You say that all the time on these lists, cafeproz, but it's apparent you are a fan of the emo slacker deity, or you wouldn't bother to get so upset about the lists--without providing anything substantive to refute it.

Classic christard sniveling.

theedster said...

This is humorous, from what I read on most blogs like this is people are more trying to convince themselves than others. Sounds like gibberish.

Keep working, keep trying you may get there, lol.

Steve Wells said...

It is gibberish, theedster. Pretty much everything Jesus said was gibberish. Thanks for pointing that out. lol.

Unknown said...

1 Timothy 6:1 - Let all who are under a yoke as bondservants] regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled.

If that was in the list, I missed it.

Steve Wells said...

Thanks Sean M. That's a good one.

But I can't add it to the list since Jesus didn't say it. Someone who claimed to the Paul (but wasn't) did.

Leonidus the Great. said...

absolutely awesome.

cloistered_cluttered_confused_orccc said...

@ Ratman
I think that you are a good person. If you are going to quote or paraphrase from the Bible please use references so that I too may follow along with your train of thought,[e.g. “I will stand upon my watch…to see what he will say…and what I shall answer when I am reproved,” (Habakkuk 2:1)] Otherwise what you say comes across like it is only your opinion--not Biblical fact.

It is a good idea to reference every idea that is not purely all of your opinion. Let me suppose that you heard a sermon from which you came to understand that “Christ wasn’t the messiah the Jews were expecting”. You need to reference this with a source [e.g. (Dr. Burdock, 1st Methodist Church, Houston, Tx, Sermon, April 8, 2012), or (Citation needed) or (Unknown).

For instance you stated: “Christ's virginal non-sexual conception.” There is only one reference to the actual conception of Jesus in Bible and it is in the Book of Luke. “…And the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee…” (Luke 1:35). Highest Powers that overshadow infer rape. And rape is sex--violent sex at that. Who had the power to rape, God? All things are possible (Matt 19:26).

Perhaps, (more likely), King Herod took sport with the maidens of his court? Could that be the interest of the despot Herod killing infants and toddlers (Matt2:16), He thought that one of the bastards he created while power raping resulted in a child that would qualify prophetically for his replacement, (Matt. 2:3).

I recommend that you view the Movie “Caligula” with Malcolm McDowell, and Peter O’Toole to understand to common power rape by Roman Empire despots of the time. Power rape is also referenced in the Cohen Film “The Dictator.”

Renee' said...

I find this absolutely fascinating! Many of the problems with these Biblical sections are simply faith based. If one accepts, by faith, Jesus as God, then they accept that certain things must be true... ie, God is in control and made everything, so he would require us to love him, choose him, want him above every other thing on earth - family included. If indeed he is loving, with our best interests at heart, then choosing him first is not a problem... the other things are important too, so he will take care of those as well. As far as the killings, wars, and the slaying of children, these were horrible, and intended to get us to stand up and take note. In each event, there was some sinful behavior that was being punished...the death of another, for the sins of the previous. The idea that someone "innocent" (like a child) died as restitution or punishment for someone who was not (a king, a nation, a father or mother)... that is what salvation's entire basis is...Jesus was proposed to be without sin, and died for everyone else's sin so that they wouldn't have to go to hell, outer darkness, eternal punishment - whatever you want to call it.
With that said - if one lacks that faith, ie.,does not believe that Jesus is God, or indeed that there even is a God, then people are the highest being on the food chain. Thusly, any morality goes to the highest bidder. Whoever has the power and money decides what everyone will do legally, morally, and ethically. There is no black and white or right and wrong. It's all up to the one in charge... and so many ancient people groups sacrificed people, children included, participated in genocide, warred for ridiculous reasons, etc. One needs to be careful in viewing history in light of modern "sophistication." I hope you keep posting, as this is really interesting!

Mic said...

Renee, an interesting piece.
But why would god want all this love for himself, above all things? Is he so insecure, like a Hollywood starlet, that he desperately needs our

love and devotion? The picture I get is one like Marylyn Monroe, who was so narcissistic that she needed everyone to love her. As a matter of

fact if one does comes across a person like this, they are usually the most repulsive and annoying person. It seems a bit odd that the most

powerful being in the universe is nothing more than a jealous and petty individual, starved for the attention of a pathetic, weak and moronic

creature such as ourselves.

So god uses the most brutal and violent acts imaginable, just so he can get our attention? So a father or mother trying to protect an

“”innocent”” (from your piece I would derived that no-one is innocent and by extension deserve what they get) child with their heart pounding

with abject fear and despair. The parent knows he/she does not have the power to stop the atrocity. All this, just so god can get our

attention! That makes no sense! Actually it does get my attention, how can the most powerful being in the universe just stand idly by and

watch for centuries, the injustices and horrors perpetrated on the innocents, usually done in his name, and do NOTHING. Absolutely nothing!

Think about it. How many people cry out to god or a god in their hour of need and get NOTHING!

If you read your bible, morality is not one of god’s strong points, in fact if I followed god’s example, I would be a sex-obsessed,

foreskin-hatin’, female-despising, phallic-adoring, brutally indiscriminate individual with the power to punish the guilty and help the

innocent but refuse to, based on some obscure lesson I wish to teach my followers if they can work out the cryptic message, all the while, the

innocents are being torn apart.

Modern sophistication is the same as ancient sophistication, war is war, killing is killing, injustice is injustice and politics is politics.

We are not different from those who came before us which is disappointing.

Tom VonOxford said...

Re Mic's response to Renee:

AMEN and thank you. Why isn't this obvious even to the most oblivious and even Renee?

estnihil said...

"He discouraged marriage."
Eh being a fan of polyamory and being someone who doesn't think marriage as a custom actually works when people have lifespans longer than 40 years, I'm not that keen on this. But otherwise great post as always.

PrizeWinners said...

LOL sorry. I just stopped reading after the very first reason. I came looking for solid, reasonable arguments or actual pieces of Bible verses that say "God hates fags" or something stupid like that. All I got was that "Jesus used the word hate, so therefore he must actually, in today's definition, hate something rather than it being a comparative or hyperbolic word." If you look around the Bible for other times when the word "hate" is used especially by Jesus (e.g. "No man can serve two masters... he will hate the one and love the other or... etc.") hate is basically used in the meaning of "to love less." Nobody in their right mind actually hates one master and loves the second master while serving both of them; people who work for two bosses have preferences or more love for one boss over the other. In light of the same meaning, Jesus is basically saying that whoever loves Jesus but still loves his family more is not fit to follow him.

Makes sense? Or no?

Unknown said...

very poor understanding of Bible..!!!

Tom VonOxford said...

To prakash mv

I presume you are telling us that you have a very poor understanding of the bible.

You should read more of what Steve Wells writes. It will help you to understand the bible with a clarity that few obtain.

Import Connection Auto Repair said...

Steve, I just discovered your blog yesterday and have enjoyed reading much of it. I really enjoyed the one about "how many people did God kill". I gave up on Christianity about 5 years ago after 40 years. However, I must agree with those who say you took a lot of these things about Jesus out of context. Take the first one about hating your family. In Luke 14:7 it clearly shows that Jesus was using a parable "And he put forth a parable". He makes the statement about "hating your family at the end of this parable. He then gives what seems to me to be the meaning of the parable. "14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?" It seems pretty clear that he is advising followers that they should count the costs before following him which would most likely include being disowned by their families.I grew up in a ultra independent fundamental Baptist church and saw how they took things out of context to made the Bible say what they wanted it to and explained away all the evil deeds that were committed in the Old Testament in the name of God. I think it is important in refuting what they believe to use logic and not take thing out of context as they do.

moyletbic said...

Good work! Tough battle though. Christians are not easy to break. They are too afraid of life and afterlife to give up their god and bible. They have been brainwashed from birth. The threats torment their minds. Just think how peaceful this world would be if religion did not exist. Good luck,

phrogs.lily said...

Moyletbic - quite a generalization there. I am neither afraid of life nor concerned with afterlife. I grew up atheist more then anything, so no brainwashing there either. Turning to God and accepting Jesus - was of my own accord and for various reasons.

Mic - you wrote "Think about it. How many people cry out to god or a god in their hour of need and get NOTHING!"

I think that depends on what you expect. I don't expect things to happen the way I want them to. Sure, would it be nice - yes, but if not - I strongly believe that there is a reason. Just because God does not prevent some things from happening or does not answer the way we want Him to, does not mean He isn't working in our lives somehow.

Love Bomb said...

I loved this post. I think all of the fake free thinkers hiding as non Christians on this blog. I thik many believers, even the ones who say that each word of the Bible is literally true exept when it's just nonsense then it's an interpretation. That kind of thinking is so crazy-making and inconsistent. Like the most powerful force/entity in the universe couldn't speak clearly and mean what he said. It's ridiculous. I think when you pull out the direct Jeessuus quotes all Christians get panicked. He's supposed to be cool and loving but obviously he's not. He was God who became his own son to kill himself for the sins of Adam and Eve??? Crazy shit. For whoever said; well he is God so to be an egomaniacle dick is OK. So funny

Edenteum Norvis said...

Did you read the original scriptures in the original language?


Your study is incomplete and it is not founded on solid basis.

You are wrong as the Catholic Bible is wrong.

Clearly to speak , you need to learn.

Search and you will find, strong surprises.

Cat said...

This and all arguments, are what the Scriptures are trying to prevent when we are told to "rightly divide the Word".
To try to explain the Scriptures by the definition of words in an ordinary dictionary, is not rightly dividing the Word. It does nit take a rocket scientist to know that Jesus did not tell anyone to literally hate their parents! We are not even to hate our enemy, so why would He literally mean we are to hate our parents?! My Greek lexicon says that the word "hate" in that passage means to regard with less affection, love less, esteem less..
Anyone who is knowledgeable in the Word of God can see that this is the meaning of Luke 14:26. Atheists are so afraid that God might actually exist, that they try desperately to prove that He doesn't. And don't even try to say that statement doesn't make sense. Because it does, perfect.

Tom VonOxford said...

Response to Cat

I thought the bible was the infallible/inerrant (take your pick) "word of god".

You have just acknowledged that there are contradictory phrases in this perfect book.

Tell me how to interpret Matthew 13:10-15 where Jesus admit he speaks in parables in order to confuse people. Tell me how to interpret Mark 7:26-27 where Jesus refuses to help a woman from Canaan.

Anonymous said...

Apologist rationalize that by saying that he only referred to domestic dogs, not to feral ones, as if that made a difference. And another two or three rationalizations appear at some site.
For the record,

pdfromwv said...

Wow, I found this site by searching "Ox Goad," and here I am!

I've studied the Bible as an unbeliever and it made no sense. I then studied it as a believer, and came to the conclusion that Jesus is God in human form.

I have little use for religion, but love God's word.

God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. I try everyday to be more humble.

Good luck with your quest for knowledge.

Dolphyvn said...

Yeah, I can say I'm God.
Deuteronomy 23:2-4 : "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord." So Jesus is a bastard and he can, then whats going on? This is so conflict. god just say shit in the bible

Scaughdt said...

"It's not meant to be taken literally. It means any manufacturer of dairy products." ~ The Life of Brian

Great site, my Friend! You might find the "Avant Garde Bible Study" (for skeptics, Christians & recovering Christians alike) to be pretty intriguing. Everything is well-researched & downloadable for free.

enJOY, and thanks again!



gh0stm0n said...

Just bought your book, Steve... I really appreciate you dedicating it to me. I've lost so many friends and family to this man-made social circle called church. It's so sad when people choose this blasphemy instead of recognizing the intrisic suffering of man already present. I suppose you could even call it the natural morality of the "manifest image" ...needless to say, the Bible has truly made my life, for one, much harder than it had to be.

Just one polite criticism on #24... I think you can get the message across better without mentioning politics - keeping your message solely on Jesus' character would more likely sway your visitors. The Tea Party surely would not state the above as their modus operandi. Seperation of church and state, as Jefferson says? One argument at a time...

Again, thank you for your diligent work with this + the SAB.

Unknown said...

Why wont god heal amputees? The religious claim She heals absolutely everything else.

There is more grace, honesty, truth, humility, honour, WISDOM, compassion and love in one episode of Kung Fu than in twenty centuries of christianity.

The sooner this mind pestilence dies out the better for our species or they are gonna get us all killed.

Anonymous said...

Firstly, there is no physical proof Jesus Christ ever existed. in As for all those sentences he is alleged to have said... well. Who said Jesus said all that? Any proof? Nope. Not a shred. Oh, but it's in that Bible which was written allegedly by anon Jews. LOL. In fact the Bible is the most fraudulent book of all time. It was rewritten, copied, edited, altered, added to, forged, changed, 'improved' and messed with countless times through the ages. And still people see all that Holy Babble Nonsense as the Inspired Word of God. The only thing that book inspires is a lethal virus called... Christianity.

Tom VonOxford said...

An "atta-boy" for Tony King:

Well said. I too have used the term "Holy Babble". Don't you just love it.

Hardly anyone has addressed the issue of how these "words of Jesus" were maintained with absolute integrity for at least 30 years before they were ever put to ... what: wax tablets? stone? papyrus? Word?

Really, over 36,000 words, 1599 verses uttered by Jesus, all made it perfectly intact through "oral tradition"? I think not.

Check out "The Complete Sayings of Jesus" at http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/csj/index.htm for some very interesting reading.

Bernie's blogg said...

Its really to bad you don't know what words mean. Example: When Jesus said you must hate your mother and father he was using the word "hate" meaning "love less".
I wonder how much Greek and Hebrew you really know. Be sure you know what you talk about before you drag others into a ditch.

Tom VonOxford said...

To Bernie,

I wasn't aware that in order to read the bible, one had to know Greek and Hebrew.

If that's what it meant, then why wasn't it translated that way? Hmm

Bernie's blogg said...

I did not say one had to know Greek and Hebrew to read the Bible, I said there are words in the Bible that you must know what they mean.
A man is never so blind as one that refuses to see.

Tom VonOxford said...

To Bernie,
"I said there are words in the Bible that you must know what they mean".

OK - so it's just "certain" words that one must know. Just which are those Greek and Hebrew words that one MUST know? Would you please list them and give their translations.

Otherwise, how will we know which words are "certain" words and which can be read without knowing Greek and Hebrew?

"A man is never so blind as one that refuses to see".

None of want to be blind - please enlighten us. I am so afraid that I have been misreading the bible all these years. Does "love" just mean "like a lot" etc?

I sure don't want to make the mistake of seeing a word like "hate" and not knowing it really means "love less".

Which by the way, doesn't begin to let Jesus off the hook. He still says you should leave your family. And what does it really mean when he says.

Please translate this verse for us:
I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Bernie's blogg said...

I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
What this means is morality has always been a problem to those who are immoral. Those who have born again many times have been shunned even by family members.
In Jesus day, those who received Christ as savior were enemies even to family members.
Before I was saved, I never really understood the Word of God.
Without the Holy Spirit, you will never understand the Bible. (1 Corinthians 2:12-14)
You know, I don't think you really want to know what the Bible teaches.

Tom VonOxford said...


You have me all wrong. I really do want to know what the bible teaches. But you are telling me that I cannot trust the words I read to mean what they say. You have had to interpret everything I thought I knew.

You still haven't told me how I am to know which words have to be translated because of their Hebrew or Greek meaning and which words can be accepted at face value.

How did you ever learn how to do this? How did you learn that the verse "I am come to set a man at variance against his father" really means "morality has always been a problem to those who are immoral as you indicated?

I will never be able to do that so I guess that there is no point in my continuing to read the bible.

This will be my last post on this thread. I don't think you really know what you are talking about.

Unknown said...


Why is there even a hell to save us from? If you were god, would there be a hell? And furthermore, did you always know that the majority of souls would eventually go there? That's sick if you already knew that. You're a bad god.

smokyjames said...

I was once a mocker of Christians, a rejector of God. But then something happened. I had an encounter with Jesus Christ, not physical of course, spiritual, but it had a physical impact on my life, my family and my overall well being. A broken family was restored. I gave up drinking, drugs, and other destructive behaviors. I am happy as a Christian, proud to be a pastor, and looking forward to eternal life.
Go ahead, mock, laugh, do all the things I once did. Hopefully one day you will meet Jesus the way I did. Hopefully you won't squander your last opportunity for salvation. I truly hope that you turn to Jesus before it is everlasting too late.

Tom VonOxford said...

To Smokey James;

I am truly happy that something changed your life for the better.

You say it was an encounter with Jesus. Could you enlighten us all as to what it is about you that caught Jesus' eye?

There are many people, I'm thinking of 14 year old virgin girls in Africa who are raped and sold into slavery, who could use some help from Jesus.

What do they have to do to get Jesus to come and keep the hairy, heavy breathing, fat people who, because of "free will" continue to commit the most heinous atrocity possible?

Where is Jesus/God when you need it?

Mic said...

I was once a mocker of Atheists, a rejector of Common Sense. But then something happened. I had an encounter with truth, not physical of course, logical, but it had a physical impact on my life, my family and my overall well being. I was no longer bound to the choking, suppressive and confusing regulations/burdens of the bible and an erratic god. A potentially broken family was saved from the ravages of self-righteousness bullshit. My kids were spared from leading an unfulfilled life.I can now freely drink, never cared for drugs, and enjoy some destructive behaviors. I am now truly free and happy as a person without an 'ist' or 'ian' or 'ism', glad I am not a pastor (which I probably would have become), and looking forward to fulfilling life.
Go ahead, mock, laugh, do all the things before you miss out. Hopefully one day you will meet and understand logic and truth and be free, truly free. Hopefully you won't squander your last opportunity for freedom. I truly hope that you turn to the truth before you waste another second.

Like VonOxford, I am truly happy that you have changed your life for the better, however lots of people change their life for all sorts of reason.
I was reading about a person who was suicidal and after reading the comforting words in a Superman comic decide not to do the deed and turn their life around.

Give yourself some credit smokyjames, you had a hell of a lot more to do with your change than anyone else.

One day I woke up and prayed to a big rock, I got the same answer as when I prayed to god ...NOTHING. Now I may be undeserving, but what about those who are? They too get NOTHING and suffer immensely.

@VonOxford, well said as usual.

Stephen said...

"And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted".John 3:17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. " Try learning how to read and put things in "CONTEXT" ...without Spiritual understanding any interpretation of sacred text is meaningless due to Spiritual blindness, and this post completely verifies that. Thank you for confirming and increasing the Truth of this!

Tom VonOxford said...

To Stephen

The ole "out of context" excuse again. What's that? We need "spiritual understanding" in order to read the bible?

How do I obtain "spiritual understanding" if not by reading the bible.

What if god sent me a "strong delusion so that I should believe a lie" 2 Thessalonians

What then Stevie? What if the lord, from the beginning hath NOT chosen me to salvation"?

Help me escape my predestined damnation. Perhaps by reading the bible, but I need spiritual understanding to do so.

Woe is me. Whatever shall I do?

Anonymous said...

Steve, thank you for your time and effort put in here (and elsewhere) for the evolutionary good of humanity. You do a great job...kudos. It's heartening to see the collapse of Christianity which I see everywhere with dwindling elderly church congregations, more and more atheists and a raising of general awareness. This is due primarily to the influence of the Internet thank Gwod. Religious LOLs on the Internet have done more to expose the fraudulence that is Christianity than anything. Lo, Ho, and Behold; may it continue. Whoever would have thought that such a ridiculously-stupid idea would have been so popular for so long? This silliest of ideas: A (male) deity called God creates people but they displease him so he drowns everyone except for Noah and family... (after saying DON'T KILL ANYONE!) who commit incest as they repopulate the world. THEN this mass murdering genocidal maniac called god decides to send himself (as his son) to be born to a married virgin that he has impregnated with his divine seed. This god's idea is that if he can get himself murdered by the Romans (and Jews) that will atone for the terrible heinous sin that Adam and Eve had committed (by following the advice of a talking snake that god had sent, and eating an apple) and so on blah blah gibberish gibberish. What a load of old codswallop! And to think that this rank bullshit could have captured the imaginations of so many humans for so long... Wow, us humans are a credulous, gullible, foolish lot. THANK GAWD FOR THE INTERNET!

Anonymous said...

Oh, and while I'm at it... the Babble has 60-odd ANONYMOUS authors LOL and all of them Hebrews. (Would you really give a book with so many anon authors any credence?)

What a surprise, we have a book written by unknown Jews, all about Jews, and FOR Jews. In this Book of Lies and Gibberish, we have this 'god' of the Hebrews declaring exactly who is his Chosen Race.

WTF? a god has a fav race? Guess? Rightttttt. The ISRAELITES. So, this Hebrew racist god promptly gives Palestinian land to his favorites.

Hey wait, you can't give somebody else's land away to your favorites! Oh yes you can when are a racist, murdering, infant-killing, jealous, vindictive, bullying, sexist, misogynistic, ethnic-cleansing, plague-sending lunatic Hebrew gawd called Jehovah.

As we know, the Babble is jam-packed with bullshit gibberish. Strangely, this rubbish still holds a sort of mystical reverence in Western societies. Hell we are asked in a court to swear on the Holy Book of Lies, to tell the truth!

The Koran and the Babble... two "Holy" books that mirror each other... both full of extreme hate, atrocities, gross immoralities and full of absurdities. Gawd halp us all...

Tom VonOxford said...

To Tony King,

I agree 100% with EVERYTHING you say.
Help me with what to say to my 35 year old son who says that if it weren't for his "relationship with Jesus", he would be profoundly depressed. And, he does have good reason to be depressed, believe me, but he is not.

I just decided to shut up about all that I, like you, know.

Help me.

Anonymous said...

Tom, I feel for you, yes. I think you should encourage his Jesus thing, so long as it makes him feel good. Billions of deludeds do this every day with ... various characters.

If if helps, where's the worry? A loved one who has contracted the dread christian virus cannot be swayed by logic and reason, no matter what. (I have some Jehovah Witless relatives, so I know this first hand!)

The psycho aspect of this is that they could well be worshipping Wiley E Coyote and Mickey Mouse, with the Road Runner as the Bad Guy and feeling good, holy and extremely righteous about that. (Just as they do about Jeebus and Jehoover now.)

If you read the transcript of the Dover Trial, a daughter (atheist) and her elderly Dad (christian) come to a parting of the ways. He gives us a clue as to how this dread christian virus works when he says words to the effect that HE WILL BE SEEING LOVED ONES AGAIN soon IN HEAVEN. There is one of their big selling points...

You might try always seeing your son as happy and free of depression, and free of religious delusion, without ever saying anything to him. This can help.
Best of luck, Tom...

Anonymous said...

Tom, Here is some heavy-duty FUN therapy... which never ceases to make me ... LARF.

Anonymous said...

The link I put there yesterday is the best sermon evah!

Tom VonOxford said...


It's funnier without the farts. Their over the top words, facial expressions, shit-eating-grins, et. al. are too funny to be interrupted by juvenile bathroom humor.

Anonymous said...

Juvenile bathroom humor FARTS fit most beautifully and neatly with BABBLE quotes and shit-eating TV evangelists like Ernst... LOL

Anonymous said...

Professor Gerard Bradley of Notre Dame is an Inquisition Denier for his beloved Catholic Church. WTF? I sent him Arthur Maricle's fine Inq expose, as well as this...

"I do further promise and declare, that I will, when opportunity presents, make and wage relentless war, secretly or openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do and to extirpate and exterminate them from the face of the whole earth, and that I will spare neither sex, age nor condition and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics; rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants' heads against the wall, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race."— Pope Paul III, 1576

The Stranger said...

What a ridiculous and hilarious post! You are just as ignorant and misguided as the fundamentalists, which is no easy feat!! Religious truth is expressed in metaphor not literal history. All religious metaphor is a reflection of the time and place of the creation of the mythology. Your analysis proves a fundamental misunderstanding of what the gospels are, allegorical teaching tools. You are being just as much of a literalist as the new world creationists! The posts about Horus and Attis etc are also misunderstandings about the nature of mythology. The reason the same myths appear in multiple ancient cultures is because they are metaphors for natural phenomenon or personal mystical experiences which trancend time and place. The same myths being expressed in different forms strengthens the message, it doesn't disprove it. The Christ allegory is about the cyclical process of birth, death, and rebirth that has happened since forever. It is about transformation, self awareness, compassion and love. It's not about some man being literally born of a virgin, tortured, crucified and literally resurrected. Despite popular opinion, popular culture does not define religious truth. Spiritual truth is inherent in nature, and the rest is a synthesis of ancient culture, philosophy, and religion. The books are clearly metaphorical and should be understood through the paradigm of an ancient world view. Reading them literally and without historical context is just as ignorant for fundamentalists as it is for atheists. Thanks for the laugh though.

Tom VonOxford said...

To "The Stranger",

No "Christian" would agree with you re:"...books are clearly metaphorical and should be understood through the paradigm of an ancient world view."

I agree with you but you and I are about the only two that believe that. Most people who read the bible believe from 50 to 100% of the nonsense it contains; literally.

The Stranger said...

"Mythology may, in a real sense, be defined as other peoples religion. And religion may, in a sense, be understood as a popular misunderstanding of mythology."

- Joseph Campbell

The Stranger said...

Side note, I know plenty of Christians who are not fundamentalists and do not view the bible as literal or historical. Myself included.

Anonymous said...

Dear The Stranger, I see you liked my irreverent posts. LOL. I also see you are a closet Christian who loves his absurd allegories and Myths by the bucketload. How amazing that you are just another seriously-deluded faith, when you speak of the Gospels containing religious truth. What religious truth? Jesus probably never existed and was very likely invented by the same anonymous Sand People who made up all that gibberish in the Bible: the Hebrews. The idiotic teachings of Jesus such as love your enemies, turn the other cheek, give all your stuff away to the poor, render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's etc, are not taken seriously by anyone with common sense these days because they are just plain silly. Like you. It is obvious that was a ploy to try to get Jews to behave better for the invaders, the Romans of the day. Of course this pussy Jesus was not the Jew Messiah. Love your (hated Roman Invader) enemies indeed!

Cloud Hermit said...

- Jesus's blunder -

Let's say you are God, and you created a world of humans.
Then you send a Saviour.
And the Saviour blundered.
Instead of saying, "The gateway to heaven is through *goodness*,"
The Saviour blundered, "The gateway to heaven is through *Me-as-the-one-and-only-saviour*; all others who do not accept me as the only saviour will go to hell."

"if you do good but not accept me, you go to hell."
"if you kill, rape, massacre, crusade, endorse slavery, it is okay, just accept me."

What problems have been created by this Saviour's grave blunder?

Now, people do not need to be good or do good for salvation, they just need blind worship to atone all their sins. Killing, rape, massacre, crusades, slavery, and all human atrocities are all atoned through "blind faith." Instead of bringing down from heaven a religion of faith, it ends up really being a religion of fear (of damnation, hell, etc.), a religion of persecution of devotees of other religions, and killing, crusades, and discrimination. To earn your favor and grace, your followers persecute other faiths' devotees. All evil actions are all excused in the name of honoring you the God.

And you as God's religion cannot be in harmony with others because your Saviour proclaimed the wrong thing and human followers of your religion go kill and persecute and discriminate other religions' devotees to earn your favor and grace.

What would you do if you were the God?


(In memory of Iraq victims of religion fallacies.)

The Veritopian said...

Both skeptics and Christians really ought to be aware that the Christian Church does not represent Jesus, or his teachings. On the contrary, it teaches a neutered version with the specific aim to discredit Jesus, and to misrepresent his teaching. From the comments, I'd say they're doing a great job.

The church, at best, is a club for people who like pretending to be good. At worst it's a diabolical counterfeit designed to parasitise the people.
The church doesn't teach what Jesus taught. The Bible only reports a few bits, and adds much he didn't say. The heavy inclusion of 'St Paul's' anti-christian writings pollutes what message the gospels do convey.
The church teaches illogical nonsense: "All you have to do is believe in Jesus, and you'll be saved." - is the opposite of what Jesus taught.

The skeptics have an easy target in the Bible, the church's stupid teachings, and their hypocritical followers. And it plays to their egos to imagine themselves being 'smarter' than the 'dumb christians'. The hypocrisy of the 'rationalists' who deny the validity of Christ is they think they're not members of a religion. They are, and their religion is even more stupid and illogical, but they probably won't see it. They think they're 'rational', wheras they're actually religious fundamentalists too.

Religions don't need to include a concept of god... So-called 'atheism' is the religion of materialism and money. You make money your god instead, you make government and scientists your priests. You believe in them, and you have faith in their judgements. You pay your tithe/tax to your church/government. You believe in and follow their laws and dictats. such as: "Thou shalt not consume alcohol in a public place", or "The world is overpopulated".

The bottom line here is both sets of people are being intellectually lazy, and not working out the actual truth for themselves. One set believes their Bible, the other believes their 'Economist magazine' (or whatever). The truth is that Jesus definitely existed, and the resurrection definitely happened (check Wikipedia FFS). He taught an awesome message, but you have to look to Gnostic sources to get anywhere near the original, and you always have to discern the truth for yourself. That's what the man taught.

Island Radio said...

Although you, alone, are never going to convince the pious, (my ex convinced our five children that i was a demon, let alone a bully, thief etc., with the very obvious result of me having no contact at all) as they are so brainwashed, like confusing christianity for being good to one another; you raise some interesting points. Just the research into what the bible actually says about how vindictive, murder orientated, and how thoroughly vile and nasty and genocidal "God" actually is, according TO the bible, is enough to make anyone question the whole thing, but, do they? Of course not, they prefer to ignore all that stuff, well all those thees and thous, and ye's get in the way of a good read don't they? Suffer the little children...? they bloody well do don't they?

Anonymous said...

Samuel said "were my family, or friends or whatever, sent to hell, I wouldn't miss them one bit, because I'm utterly satisfied in christ"

What a disgusting response. So you will feel satisfied knowing that your family is burning forever? I would expect a sociopath to say such things. It's just plain disgusting to read such an 'evil' response.

Currents Point said...

The list is good for people who are trying to divorce themselves psychologically from the christian system.

I don't believe the bible as it is now written was written the way it was originally intended to be understood.

Gate keepers and naysayers for the unknown realm, that sort of thing, with adjustments made for time, place, and demographic.

Island Radio said...

It took me a while, erm, about 60 years to finally rid myself of ANY vestige of concern for the unknown, the hereafter, and G.O.D. whatever that is or who it is! Logic, and it HAS to be a personal thing with most everyone, to come to the same conclusion, says that, hmm lets take my personal viewpoint. I have learnt many things, such as the basic tenet, that religion was invented, like christmas, to control the masses, especially in Europe, where, like the ISIS theology, if you didn't believe in the Catholic doctrine for one, you were against them, and suffered the consequences! Next, unless i'm corrected, the "Bible" was not only not started until some 70 years after the last of the events purported to have taken place, happened, or not, depending on your point of view. Convoluted ain't it? Further, and bear with me, i realised that if the Pope thinks he is closer to "GOD" than me, he is seriously delusional, if that's not the case, why has the guy genitalia and a hole in his ass? I know! a whole new balls game!. Further, were the people who wrote all those thees and thous, the same people who wrote the Kuran (sic) and the US 2nd amendment [1776], when muskets and pikes were the weapons of choice? Makes you think eh? or in the case of the NRA, not! Fundamentally, arguing about religion per se, is no fun unless you have adversaries on the other side, i mean of course the people who live and breath by the "good book". I'm a blasphemer and a sinner and so on, is that right?, and you think criminals like Peter Popoff, and that Van Impe guy, who have been shown to be frauds, charlatons, and are raking in $24 mill a year, that's despite being arrested and charged with fraud on more than several occasions! They are the only one's, along with "the beliebers" meh!, that ARE going to be surprised, when, they croak and the final second, is the time they see where they ARE going, or, not, which is more likely. Thank You for reading. Mr. Angry of Tunbridge Wells!

Tom VonOxford said...

Re: Current Points points:

But the Babble is the "inspired word of God", edited by the universe's editor-in-chief, the wholly holey "Holy Spirit".

How is it possible that it is misinterpreted by nearly everyone who reads it? Shouldn't its message be easily understood by all for all times?

Rubbish is what it is

Currents Point said...

My Facebook fanatic friend asked me what my favorite book is, and I said, "The Bible, because of the good reads based on it." I didn't go into what good reads for fear of reprisal i.e. this Website.

Anyway Tom, "inspired word of God," is only one preconceived ideal imposed by various religious systems that is still considered a mainstream belief. Another preconceived idea is "inerrancy, or "infallibility." Considering the information age, people don't have to travel the world, and at great expense, or go to private schools with particular ways of believing anymore. Here is an
example, with my home computer and the free software I got from
e-sword I can search for the word "God" then drill down in reference of greek/hebrew into the english translation and get to the affect of "Unknown Entity."

Unknown said...

This blog is nothing but misguided and misleading.

Unknown said...

And you know what Steve Wells, you are complete lost soul.

Unknown said...

And no, I don't think you take the bible seriously, Steve Wells.

worker11811 said...

Anybody ever stop to think about all the killing and bloodshed that went into establishing the Israelites as God's chosen people in the Old Testament, only to condemn each and every one of them to eternal damnation because they do not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ (John 14:6)in the New Testament?

Unknown said...

Having read Luke 14:26 several times I cannot see where Jesus tells anyone to hate their families. Maybe he does in a translation I'm not familiar with?

In any case, taking certain passages literally and out of context for one's own purpose seems to be a trait shared by extremists of both religious and atheist persuasions which is a shame.

I believe the word "hate" is a direct translation of the Greek "miseo". As far as I know, Jesus didn't speak Greek, if he had, no one would have understood him. Is it possible Luke has exaggerated this phrase to put emphasis on Jesus' meaning that only those who would put him before their own families could become his disciples?

Further still, there are other examples in the Bible where the word hate is used as way of emphasising difference. We can see a simple modern example in the Marmite advert where people either love it or hate it.

When hearing any second-hand or translated text we must be careful to realise some words should not be taken literally. This happens frequently when people are interviewed in languages other than their native tongue, people will critics them for being abrupt or rude but in fact simply their translation has been misunderstood.

Unknown said...

pl do not apply worldly interpretations to biblical verses The Almighty God is spirit so worship Him with spirit and righteousness if you want your soul to rest and rejoice in JESUS when you leave your body

Tom VonOxford said...

Don't apply worldly interpretations to the bible? How else then should we interpret it? Didn't God know we would be speaking worldly English and make the bible universal for all to read and understand.

I love it when you self-rightous folk accuse us of being too literal and taking things out of context - as if you don't do the same; John 3:16 for example.

But you are correct; we shouldn't be so literal. So I am no longer going to believe that "resurrection" means to come back from the dead.

northierthanthou said...

Jesus is an interesting character in a story. The problem arises when people want to treat that story as a moral guideline. And by problem, I mean fucking tragedy.

K.A. said...

I was looking for a commentary on David numbering the people and came across this. It made me laugh out loud. It's hilarious, and I am a full-on born again believer. I know that probably sounds really weird, but it's true. I really can't stop laughing. Thanks, Steve.


Anonymous said...

Maybe then, those are the reasons WHY -

1) http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud2.htm

2) http://www.thinkinghousewife.com/wp/2015/09/jesus-in-the-talmud/


Jim Page said...

I just stumbled on this by accident. Very interesting. I know there's a lot of misinterpretations and mis-translations and "what did they mean when they said that" and "Oh, you know, people just did those things in those days." It's a big argument. My Christian friends can explain away anything, rationalization is their middle name. Logic and coherence are not a part of it.

So to me, the conclusion I've come to after all these years is that Jesus was just a guru. A typical garden variety guru. It was just luck and historical necessity that made him famous. Just like the Rajneesh with his 99 limousines and his followers who abandoned their families, quit their jobs, and laid down their lives for the guy in the saffron robe. They all knew he wasn't a fake, they all knew he was the real thing. Every believer does. What did it for me about Jesus was the story of the expensive oil that some woman put on his head, and somebody said "Hey, that's a waste - we should sell it and give the money to the poor." Now, that's a reasonable thing to say. But Jesus was a guru, so he said, "Oh, the poor will always be with you, later for them. But I'm only passing through so keep giving me the oil." Pretty slick. Every guru on the planet talks like that, it's the oldest trick in the book. "I'm special. Show me you love me, or go to hell."

Michael Runyan said...

Hi Steve

I am enjoying your website and might use a few ideas for my own, citing yours in every case of course. I have been working on a list of reasons that Christianity is false, now have 733 of them. www.kyroot.com

Unknown said...

I wish you would have addressed the parts where he clearly encourages people to not forget to pay taxes to your emperor, and that there is humility and grace in being poor,uneducated,and unsuccessful. Jesus was a spokesperson for imperialism and capitalism.

Unknown said...

I read a few lines, realised what’s going on, had a nice giggle, and left the page. Whoever wrote that has Googled Christ or taken passages out of Sceptics Annotated Bible (I think whoever wrote that Googled Jesus too lol), and not really read the bible in full. It’s like the news highlight reel. You can take many things out of context from what Luke, Matthew and Mark have written long after his death, and build a very convincing case in order to manufacture opinions. A text without a context often becomes a pretext, as the old saying goes.

I’ll just debunk one main point. Always fun to do that to Google-Wikipedia Scholars. Majority of the interpretations are really stupid. But there are a couple of good ones worthy of my attention.

“Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34, Luke 12:51-53

First, let’s literally contradict the statement above with another quote from Jesus.
Matthew 26:52. "Put your sword back in its place, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.”
Confused? To imply that Jesus wanted his followers to live by the sword is just plain ridiculous, and a desperate ploy to twist his words.
Ok, now let’s analyse his words.
"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”
“A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."
He is addressing his DICIPLES. Not you. Not me. Are they ready for this commitment? The SWORD he speaks of is metaphorical. It’s a symbol of severing ties, aka attachments. Even his own family was resistant to the idea of letting him go. So no matter the cost, disciples must leave all of that to achieve absolute enlightenment. This resonates with Buddhism as well. But this only applies if the families reject the disciples’ new life. Mind you, when he says cut off the attachment, he does say reject them. What he is saying is that the life they chose can result in possible family division for his disciples. So they have to use the sword of the will against all opposition. It’ true that he has divided people into two camps. Those who follow him and those who do not. But he never tells them to wage war against those who do not. Holy crusaders have used the sword to against non-believers, but those crusaders are not foundational to Christianity. Only Jesus is.
There is not a single verse in the New Testament that calls the Church to commit violence to spread the gospel or to plant churches or to accomplish anything else. As for the rest of the points laid out on that list, referring to the eternal punishment after death in hell does not inspire violence. It inspires you to stay away from violence. Your commitment is to an ideology, and all the lines you have cherrypicked is shaped to support it. Thanks you.

Tom VonOxford said...

Jaelamadawala: Are you daft man?

He is not addressing his DICIPLES (whatever that means, I presume you meant "disciples"). He says "whoever", "man", "anyone", "him" several times. You at least have to admit that the reader could be confused into thinking he was speaking to all of us.

Using your line of thinking one of the most important lines in the Bible, ""Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven." is referring only to the disciples. You then, are saying that Jesus was speaking only to his disciples - there is no other way to interpret it using your own convoluted "thinking". It doesn't apply to all mankind.

If verses that appear to be directed to us, his audience, are really only intended for his disciples, how are we to know which of all the verses apply to us?

You use some of the excuses used by apologists (out of context, metaphorical) in your desperate attempt to explain the twisted doublespeak of Jesus Matt 10:24 vs Matt 26:52. But, you end up shooting yourself in the foot. You need more practice.

BTW: how do you know Jesus said anything attributed to him? The earliest quote from Jesus comes in Mark some 40 years after Jesus allegedly said it, from someone who wasn't an eyewitness. Have you ever played the childhood game T-E-L-E-P-H-O-N-E?

The two contradictory verses you quote give weight to the FACT that all quotes from Jesus are just random collections of things Jesus might have said.

Currents Point said...

Jaelamadawala, and Tom VonOxford,

I think that the most logical steps towards finding reasons behind the statements found that are pointing towards, this quote: "Sword of Truth," would be to conceptualize the importance of continuously climbing
without cease the summit towards spiritual truth. Reason I say climb is because the Bible has a big thing for High Mounting Places, be them both Literal and Mythical points of reference.

I think that we can all agree that everything is subject to change in the Light of New Knowledge, or Gnosis when considering the subjectivity of some of the
material, and studying how the inner conscious interacts with the outer.

SharonC said...

Good grief people! If it means something different to you, then great! Why bother trying to convince someone else? This blog is hilarious. I'll just stick to living a good clean life and being good and helping anyone I can. Except Jews, they hate everyone. Just kidding. Oy vey!

Currents Point said...

It is all black, grey, dreary, and dismal in color until you look at it.

A color blind person says it is green, a blind person sees red, a cat can smell the
paint from a mile away. All I can surmise is that the color of the object must truly exist.

Tom VonOxford said...

My previous comment, WTF?, was directed to Currents Point. All aboard say "Amen". Let me hear an "Amen" brothers.

Currents Point said...

Tom VonOxford,

I'm doing my best here in not passing judgement, but I am not sure what to make of your comment that was directed towards me.

You are calling for an "Amen." In reference to the question mark following your WTF, am I to understand that you are requiring prayer, or special ritual from your brothers that will help you understand?

Who are your brothers by the way?

Tom VonOxford said...

@Currents Point

Go ahead and pass judgement. It doesn't matter.

I was passing judgement with the WTF?. It was in reference to your incoherent short essay on color. I doubt any reader had any idea of what you were talking about or how it related to the topic of 50 reasons....

The call for an "Amen" was factious. I was mocking those who shout out "amen" whenever they think they have made a point and want others to agree with them; i.e. the televangelist preachers who shout "amen" and then flash the address where you should send your check. I am not asking for money though. A simple "amen" will do.

Currents Point said...

@Tom VonOxford

I would ask you to help me help you, but your pretentious poppycock is making you appear less sincere than what your conscious perception of reality will allow.

Maybe this will help you, or anybody that you are forcing to put up with you:

Would you mind describing, in your own words, what your conscious perception of object reality is?

Currents Point said...

@Tom VonOxford

I would ask you to help me help you, but your pretentious poppycock is making you appear less sincere than what your conscious perception of reality will allow.

Maybe this will help you, or anybody that you are forcing to put up with you for that matter:

Would you mind describing in your own words what your conscious perception of object reality is?

If you were to perhaps explain the century your head is in so that the rest of us in the now can get a better picture, that would be tremendous.


Tom VonOxford said...

" but your pretentious poppycock is making you appear less sincere than what your conscious perception of reality will allow." WTF?

"Would you mind describing in your own words what your conscious perception of object reality is?"

"... conscious perception of object reality" Again, I have to say WTF are you talking about? Talk about pretentious poppycock, you take the cake.

I don't expect to hear from you again and that will be just fine.

Currents Point said...

The following has not been authored by me, nor am I an affiliate. Parts of it have authored by, and excerpted from here: http://goo.gl/Db0AMj

When you get a chance, you should read the rest of it, because there is much more to it than what is quoted.


"So, even facts change. They are only 'right' until they are not 'right' anymore. What is 'right depends on the information available."

"The information we have available to us, at the most basic level, is merely our brains interpretation of some electrical signals."

"Color is nothing more than cone cells in the retina being stimulated by light waves within a certain range of the spectrum. Because each of our brains are different, our perceptions of color are different. The sky is blue, right? No question. However, your blue is different from my blue. Maybe even very different. Neither is right or wrong. Both are blue. Both are “right.” Your blue is just as blue to you as my blue is to me. Both are simply our individual brains’ interpretation of the same signals."

"Similarly, making sense of the world and the happenings within it is nothing more than our brains’ individual interpretations of the signals received as we go through our days interacting with our environments. When giving meaning to these signals, our brains add memories, beliefs and attitudes about ourselves, others, and the world influenced by family, religion, school, culture and life experiences. Every spoken word we hear, every written word we read, every experience we have, absolutely everything, is always, always the product of our brain’s subjective interpretation of stimuli."

"Hence, we all live in our own world which is our individual brain’s unique interpretation of the input it receives. There is no single, uniform reality that is consistent among all of us. Reality depends on what actually happens (objective) AND how our brains make sense of what happens (subjective). Both are necessary components of reality, and reality is a subjective concept unique to each of us. While there are many commonalities across all of our realities, it cannot be assumed that everything is the same for all of us or even remotely close to it."

"Even seeing something with your own eyes is not necessarily 'the truth.' If three different people witness a single event, there are going to be three accounts of it which can sometimes vary greatly. Research is proving that our memories are not reliable recordings of what actually happened. Our memories are imperfect copies of the past colored by our brain’s perception. A memory is only as accurate as the last time it was remembered. (For more information on this, see blog post The Lies of the Past.)"

"The need to be right denotes inflexible and limited thinking. Taking a position of being right assumes superiority and judges the other person. For you to be right, someone has to be wrong. Needing to be right is always an invitation for conflict and a misuse of efforts, I believe. The energy one uses to prove their 'right-ness' and to influence others could be put to better, more positive use. I once read an analogy of this where two deer were standing on railroad tracks arguing about the right direction in which to go. While they were arguing, a train ran over them."

"At any time, I can only speak and decide for myself about what is right FOR ME within my brain’s reality. I was told recently by someone that I do not live in the “real” world. My world is just as real to me as theirs is to them and neither is right or wrong – only different."

It’s not what you look at that matters, it’s what you see. ― Henry David Thoreau


Mic said...

Yes. And if no one sees a bear shitting in the woods, does he really shit?. The stuff from CP just puts humans at the centre of everything. Very narcissistic. The laws of the universe are and always will be in spite of us. Colour is based on wavelength. Which can be measured, compared and repeatable. Who cares what you perceived as. This mumbo jumbo meta physics crap. So is the existence of gods, angels and the like. Faith based on lack of evidence is insane.

Unknown said...

First, we must take this verse in the context of the chapter. Jesus is teaching His disciples, and like any good teacher, He begins with a truth statement that is hard to understand in order to get His students thinking. Then, He clarifies the difficult truth statement with a metaphor. The truth statement is the confusing verse 26, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple." So, if we don't hate our family and our own lives, we can't be His disciple. But does He mean we are to have real hatred for our parents?

Next, Jesus relates a metaphor about a man who builds a house without counting the cost and finds that he cannot follow through with what he set out to do. He leaves the house unfinished because he cannot pay what is required. Jesus is showing us the explanation to His difficult statement—that we must count the cost of discipleship. This is the point of the passage. In order to be a disciple, we must be willing to give up everything for Jesus. Therefore, if our parents will not follow Jesus, or even if they disown us for being Christians, we must still choose Him over them. It is in this sense that we are "hating" our family members who reject the Lord or reject us because of the Lord. This is not easy, and of course it is right that we should love our family members and want our family members to love and follow God. After all, 1 John 4:7-8 says "Beloved, let us love one another for love is from God and everyone that loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God for God is love." And that is only one of many passages commanding us to love others. But despite our love for the people we know, here is the key: if they don't love Jesus, He must still be our first priority. We must esteem Him more highly than the people we love here on earth and we must love Him more than our own lives. In fact, we must love Him so much that our earthly loves pale in comparison, even to the point of seeming like hate.

Second, let's take it in context of other places in the Bible. Matthew 19:29 says, "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life." So, here is the promise: God has required total commitment from His followers, to the point of heart-breaking separation from any natural family members who reject Jesus, but in heaven we will have a hundred times what we lost—an entire family of believers who love Christ and who love us! Even the material things that we had forsaken in order to follow Him will be given back to us in a form a hundred times better than what we lost! So, He is a good God, after all, and, no, He does not want us to literally hate (viciously despise or wish harm to) the members of our family. All we are required to do is choose Jesus over them even if they force us to do so by rejecting Him.

Jesus may have chosen the word "hate" to show us that this is how a mother or father will perceive the actions of a child who chooses the Lord above them. They will see it as disloyal, especially if we try to witness to them. The love of a Christian for a non-Christian is almost always seen as hatred, intolerance, bigotry, etc. But we must be okay with being seen as "hating." After all, our unbelieving relatives are part of the world, and Jesus said, “"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first” (John 15:18).

Heard the term hate the sin? Not the sinner? Don't take things Jesus said out of context and without knowing his true voice. When you know him you know what he means instantly....

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Anonymous said...

This website is laughable. It shows the lack of even a basic understanding of Orthodox Christian Theology.

Mic said...

Laughable? Maybe. But isn't great comedy, great because it has a foundation of truth or it reveals a truth we are too embarrassed to admit or reveals a hypocrisy?

So take your pick, and laugh at the reveal of truth that this author makes and accept the truth that Orthodox Christianity Theology, jesus, god or any other mythological hocus pocus are border-line insanity.

Accept the truth, you will feel better and finally free. No-longer bound or embarrassed to admit that you believe in a fairy-tale. Good luck in your journey of discovery.

Richwell Connection said...

I think that some people look back at what was once considered "Correct Religion (orthodox)" and laugh. While others look back with many varied contrivances of unsettled feelings.

I think another blogger put it well about the benefits of being disillusioned by the whole mess. In my own words, I think it is much healthier to face the facts of conscious experience as presented.

Religion and philosophy is an argument; life itself is an accumulation of facts, and I think it far better to look back at past foolishness with a healthy sense of humor.

Unknown said...

Boy is there a lot to read on this page, so Steve Wells I would definitely like to talk to you about some of the things you wrote here and how you came to the conclusion of some of the things you said. I will say this though, I am not here to bicker and argue like a kid and I'm sure you're not either so if you get the chance to respond to this I'd love to talk about how these thoughts about Jesus are false

Unknown said...

These are parables, they are for the most part teachings and not literal. It is understandable that those who truly know nothing about the teachings of Jesus or of the bible would be unable to comprehend them. And they are often very intellectually advanced, which causes so many to be unable to grasp them. It would only make sense that the teachings of someone who is in essence God the creator would be too much for the average or as far as that goes even the advanced individual. This brings out the argumentative side of the less advanced individuals. And debating/arguing with these individuals is a huge waste of time. You cannot win an argument with the blind and ignorant.

Unknown said...

It amazes me the back-flips that Christians do, to try to make the horrific saying of the character Jesus sound good, when you actually read the whole bible, you can clearly see, both the old testament god, and the new testament god (Jesus) are horrific monsters, which is why I always thought it was funny that Satan got such a bad rap, clearly a much nicer guy than any of the bible characters, and certainly better than old testament god, or new testament god. I just think the whole thing is a compilation of poorly written short story fiction, there is NO evidence that any of it even happened, no evidence for any god, including the ones in the bible.

Unknown said...

I wish people who quote the Bible would do a modicum of research first. Just a wee little bit....
Here's a challenge Steve, pick any one of your grossly misinterpreted quotes and learn something......Bill

Unknown said...

jesus loved the demons more than the pigs and the pigs more than you...awwwwwwwwwwwww
: (
atheists were made from communists who were made by albert pike and other satanists wahhhhhh!
the blinding hatred comes from predestination. Jacob i loved but esau i hated. Two teams are being chosen: my team captain is Holy Father inventer of quarks and positrons, galaxies, and dark energy, your's is satam, the dust eater. problem for you, my dad is picking teams for both sides and chooses only his kids on our side, Holy nepotism. cloyed much? sorry not a drop for your tongue. thanks for the persecution, my 401J retirement account is sweet!

Anonymous said...

It is amazing how much time you spent taking scripture out of context. Your lack of understanding of what the bible teaches and what Jesus meant by everything he said is pretty sad. There is an art and science of biblical interpretation that you could benefit from. Before you try to understand what the bible teaches you need to look at several factors. You need to ask yourself questions such as: Who is writing this? Who is it written to? What historical significance does it have? What are cultural understandings of what is being written? What style of writing is it written in and how is it to be best understood (is it poetic, metaphoric, literal, historic...etc.) What is happening (context)?

See, you spent a huge amount of time listing 50 things that according to your limited mind and lack of research makes it look like we should be ashamed of Jesus and the bible. Had you used any real critical thinking and any amount of academic study you would find that every single thing you posted was pure garbage and lacking real intelligence. Every comment on your blog lacks proper research and understanding. You are unfortunately very closed minded and ignorant of the truth.

Tom VonOxford said...

Troy Curtis

"Before you try to understand.....ask yourself questions .... What style, historical, cultural, context, who, etc"

So your god gave you a book that is totally incomprehensible and cannot be read without extensive research into every phrase. You have to admit that most readers of the bible do not do the rigorous analysis of each phrase that they incorporate into their beliefs and preach.

Using all the faculties you say Steve Wells lacks, will you please analyze Steve's point #39 "He lied about prayer". If that's too much, then just tell us how to correctly interpret Mark 16:18 . It appears to my untrained mind (Ph.D. Operations Research - lots of analysis and critical thinking required) that the phrase "(... they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." is an outright lie. Show me that it is not. Show me the millions that have been cured by the laying on of hands.

Isabelle Esling said...

You should be ashamed to willingly distort rabbi Yeshua's words. May He bring you to repentance and true understanding of His words.

Tom VonOxford said...

Isabell Esling:

To whom are you addressing your comment? Who is "rabbi Yeshua? Oh, is that Jesus? Why didn't you say so. You're too cool for words.

Unknown said...

Question: "What did Jesus mean when He instructed us hate our father and mother (Luke 14:26)?"

Answer: First, we must take this verse in the context of the chapter. Jesus is teaching His disciples, and like any good teacher, He begins with a truth statement that is hard to understand in order to get His students thinking. Then, He clarifies the difficult truth statement with a metaphor. The truth statement is the confusing verse 26, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple." So, if we don't hate our family and our own lives, we can't be His disciple. But does He mean we are to have real hatred for our parents?

Next, Jesus relates a metaphor about a man who builds a house without counting the cost and finds that he cannot follow through with what he set out to do. He leaves the house unfinished because he cannot pay what is required. Jesus is showing us the explanation to His difficult statement—that we must count the cost of discipleship. This is the point of the passage. In order to be a disciple, we must be willing to give up everything for Jesus. Therefore, if our parents will not follow Jesus, or even if they disown us for being Christians, we must still choose Him over them. It is in this sense that we are "hating" our family members who reject the Lord or reject us because of the Lord. This is not easy, and of course it is right that we should love our family members and want our family members to love and follow God. After all, 1 John 4:7-8 says "Beloved, let us love one another for love is from God and everyone that loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God for God is love." And that is only one of many passages commanding us to love others. But despite our love for the people we know, here is the key: if they don't love Jesus, He must still be our first priority. We must esteem Him more highly than the people we love here on earth and we must love Him more than our own lives. In fact, we must love Him so much that our earthly loves pale in comparison, even to the point of seeming like hate.

Second, let's take it in context of other places in the Bible. Matthew 19:29 says, "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life." So, here is the promise: God has required total commitment from His followers, to the point of heart-breaking separation from any natural family members who reject Jesus, but in heaven we will have a hundred times what we lost—an entire family of believers who love Christ and who love us! Even the material things that we had forsaken in order to follow Him will be given back to us in a form a hundred times better than what we lost! So, He is a good God, after all, and, no, He does not want us to literally hate (viciously despise or wish harm to) the members of our family. All we are required to do is choose Jesus over them even if they force us to do so by rejecting Him.

Jesus may have chosen the word "hate" to show us that this is how a mother or father will perceive the actions of a child who chooses the Lord above them. They will see it as disloyal, especially if we try to witness to them. The love of a Christian for a non-Christian is almost always seen as hatred, intolerance, bigotry, etc. But we must be okay with being seen as "hating." After all, our unbelieving relatives are part of the world, and Jesus said, “"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first” (John 15:18).

Unknown said...

Tom Von Oxford, you asked someone to explain point #39 where Jesus supposedly lied about prayer. Steve Wells never says how Jesus lied about prayer. All he does is repeat verses about faith. Steve Wells almost 100% of the time is taking verses out of context. In other words, so people with a PHD can understand, don't take one sentence and make it say one thing when the paragraph is saying something completely different. The Bible is not impossible to understand but no one will know ALL things except God himself.

Tom VonOxford said...

Jim Kempen

Re Luke 14:26
It takes you 680 words to "explain" (spin)the unexplainable, to put it in "context". You have only made the passage even more ludicrous.
" like any good teacher, He begins with a truth statement that is hard to understand in order to get His students thinking. Then, He clarifies the difficult truth statement with a metaphor."

Good teachers don't intentionally use "truth" statements that are hard to understand.
Good teachers don't then "clarify" the difficult with a metaphor which adds one more layer of obfuscation to the already difficult to understand concept.

Please spin this one "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." Luke 9:27 for me. I need a good laugh this morning - I just heard Trump speak and I am about to puke.

Why would Jesus do this?
Why wouldn't he attempt to make his point as easy to understand as possible, knowing that it was for all eternity; knowing that it would be copied, miscopied, misunderstood and translated into thousands of languages for thousands of years into the future?

Do you believe that everyone who reads Luke 14:26 goes through the same gyrations that you did in order to decipher Jesus' real message? Did the uneducated, poor followers just automatically perform the same exegesis you did or did they just say "Huh"?

Your attempt to explain Luke 14:16 is laughable. You can't be serious. So, every Jesus verse requires this level of exegesis? Wow! What a great teacher Jesus was.

By the way, you quote two verses (Mat 19:29, John 15:18) out of context. But don't feel bad - all Christians do it. How many times have I heard John 3:16 quoted to me without any context.

It is always fun to listen to Christians try to explain the nonsense (Luke14:16, et. al) this is in the Bible.

Tom VonOxford said...

Jim Kempen

Response to your comment about my comment: Point #39 "Jesus lied about prayer".

Of course Jesus lied about prayer. One verse proves it; Mark 16:17-18
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Jim, please come to Oxford, Ohio, arrange to meet me (schabetc@gmail.com) and we will go over to our local hospital McCullugh-Hyde, and heal all the patients in the hospital.

Until you or someone else actually lays hands on hundreds of the sick (Benny Hinn doesn't count - he's a charlatan) and heals them, I will continue to call out Jesus as a liar.

Or... maybe you can change my mind with another 680+ word treatise on how to interpret Jesus' words because they don't really mean what they appear to mean.

Tom VonOxford said...

Hi. It's me. I'm back.

Let's look at John3:16. No one ever provides context for John 3:16 and it sure needs it.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

First, who is saying this? If it's Jesus, he would have said "...whosoever believeth in ME..." Therefore the "him" obviously refers to God. But that's not the way Christians interpret it, is it. Need some "contextual" analysis here - quick!

Second, how is Jesus, God's "only begotten Son"? What did God do to beget Jesus? Oh.. he impregnated Mary in the form of the Holy Spirit. I get it now. But wait, is it not true that God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, the Trinity?

So, I take from this passage, John 3:16, that Jesus screwed his own mother in order to give birth to himself, in order to save us from himself.

You see how difficult John 3:16 is. So many ways to interpret it without context. Please help me. Put the nonsense of John 3:16 into context for me. Something no other Christian has ever done. They just quote it - without context - as though it is easily understood.

Anonymous said...

The word Trinity doesn't exist in the Bible. The word Godhead does. The God head consists of three persons - not one as you suppose. Each of the three has their own function and yet all three are in perfect agreement on everything. Jesus did not impregnate his Mother as you suggest. That statement is the product of absolute ignorance. I am not surprised though as the scripture is clear concerning unbelievers and their understanding of scripture.

1 Corinthians 2:14 states; "But the natural man doesn't receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." The natural man in this verse is the unbeliever. Believers fall into the realm of "supernatural" because of their direct relationship with God. Other classifications you might be familiar with are sinners and saints, children of darkness and children of light, children of God and children of the devil, etc. The Bible promises divine revelation to those who are children of God and that revelation is given through the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. The only ministration of the Holy Spirit in the life of an unbeliever is to bring conviction of sin. The Holy Spirit directs them to God to bow in humility, repent of their sins and put their faith in Jesus Christ for the salvation of their souls.

Continuing with the verse; "doesn't receive the things of the Spirit of God" verifies the content of the first chapter of Proverbs and men despising wisdom. It's not that God has no desire to impart spiritual wisdom and understanding to the natural man; but that the natural man has no desire to receive anything from God because of their rebellious nature. Human wisdom (I say "wisdumb") can hardly expect to understand infinite things apart from divine revelation.

In Isaiah 55:8-9 God makes it clear that his thoughts are not our thoughts and his ways are not our
ways simply because his thoughts and ways are vastly superior to ours and beyond the scope of our understanding. Isaiah 40:13 expresses more of the same in the form of a question - "Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord or being his counselor has taught him?" That is followed up with a statement in Isaiah 40:28 which states "Have you not known, have you not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the creator of the ends of the earth doesn't faint and neither is he weary? There is no searching of his understanding." The puny, finite intellect of mortal man can only feebly grasp at understanding the infinite mind of God through divine revelation.

Continuing on with this verse "for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them because THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED." Mortal man's finite mind examines the things of God and laughs in ignorance what he deems foolishness. What else is to be expected from anyone who is ignorant of spiritual truth. It is common to hear people laughing at things they don't understand. Sometimes it is nervous laughter. At other times it is mocking which is base and uncalled for. The latter is superficial and born out of fear that something they believe to be false might actually have significance in their life. They fear it would move them from their neatly ordered world and would bring life changes they either aren't ready for or reject completely. Fear of the unknown is a heavy motivator for those who believe themselves to be intellectually superior or those who have become so comfortable in their current life orientation that they don't want to hear of the possibility that they might have been mistaken for years, even decades. So they reject scripture and never move beyond their own finite capacity because it would cause them to humble themselves and admit their own weakness and inferiority and exercise faith in what they have ignorantly scorned. TO BE CONTINUED

Anonymous said...

The last part of the verse is quite revealing. "THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED" is a simple declaration that apart from Spiritual Discernment (aka divine revelation) the natural man is clueless about anything the Bible has to say because it is impossible for the carnal or unregenerate mind to apprehend one iota of spiritual truth. Elsewhere in scripture it speaks of carnal minds, the worldly person, and those who deem themselves to be wise but are fools.

You can bring your intellect to bear on scripture all you wish and you will be wrong every time no matter how excellent you believe your argument to be because you arguments come from an evil heart and the Bible states that from inward, out of the heart of man, every evil thought proceeds. Until you are purged from your sins your study of the Bible can only bring forth bad/evil fruit.

Romans 1:18-20 makes this statement dealing with mankind in general - "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

God's wrath is against ungodliness and unrighteousness and those who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Why? Because God has instilled within every person ever born the manifest knowledge of his eternal power and Godhead. Therefore mankind opposes the very truth that is sewn deep within them and in doing so his conscience is seared and incapable of understanding spiritual truth. That is why Psalms 14:1 states; "The fool has said in his own heart; there is no God." These verses state that the invisible things are clearly seen being understood by the things that are made -- that would be you and I and every person who ever lived, lives now, or ever will live. Because God has made himself so very real within the deepest recesses of our being he goes on to declare that none of us have an excuse for not believing in and putting our faith in him. The Bible also declares that God gave us a conscience to convict us of sin and "the measure of faith" to believe we are in sin and need to turn to God for forgiveness and salvation.

Argue with scripture all you want and continue to attack God at your own peril. All your arguments will be useless when you bow before the throne of God on the day of judgment that will come whether you want to believe it or not. Nobody will stand in his holy presence and state their case. Everyone who died in rebellion against him will fully understand in an acute way beyond anything they know now that their judgment is just and they will only tremble in fear know that this perfect and holy God always keeps his promises.

I implore you to consider what I am saying. I am not writing this so that you can issue your rebuttal because until you are capable of receiving spiritual truth it would be counter productive and a waste of time. This is merely a message to you. I have no animosity toward anyone on earth including you and would not even take time to do all this typing if it were not for my genuine concern for your immortal soul. Do with it what you will. The ball is in your court.

Mic said...

Fonsoc i say this as sincerely and with as much concern as you expressed in your last few sentences. Please please turn to jesus snd walk away from your pride and arrogance and your hubris. It is clear you have fallen from God's good grace as you know that god despises pride above all else.
you must know of the scripture that jesus say 'i never knew you!'and then be banished to hell. To have you burn for all eternity because you are so puffed up just makes me sick. i am praying for you sister. that you will see that you dont sit at the right hand of the father (i say farter sometimes i say fathead). that your pride is as thick as black acrid smoke.

Fall on your knees. repent fonsoc. also your fornication is an afront to your god.

Unknown said...

1. The collection of scientific knowledge has far outstripped the collection of fictional religion.
Let us begin: 1. Archeological evidence.

1.(A) Even the pope has went on record as saying that evolution is a reality and that there is too much evidence to dispute it. WTF!! quote: “When we read the creation story in Genesis we run the risk of imagining that God was a magician, with a magic wand which is able to do everything,” Pope Francis said. “But it is not so. He created beings and let them develop according to internal laws which He gave every one, so they would develop, so they would reach maturity.”- if we can't trust genisis.. then why read the bible?
1.(B) The bible completely ignores Neanderthals, Homo erectus, and Homo habilis.
1.(C) There is significant evidence that shows the Torah was written well after "moses'es death" (M.D.- about 1500 B.c.)(suspected writing 800 b.c./ or 700 potentially years after moses) even though Moses is given credit for writing it just based on the style of writing and language at that time... yes there is known usage of examples of language to compare it against..
1.(D) Furthering this evidence is backed by recent finds in Isreal that indicate CAMELS WERE NOT used as pack animals in that area until around 900 B.C. Given the fact that radio carbon dating of the camel's bones show this date and that this discovery was made AFTER the significance of the language difference was theroized, this is a double smack in the face of the old testament which shows that the whole story of all those people riding on camels was a straight lie. see 1.(E) http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/20/world/meast/do-camel-bones-discredit-the-bible/
1.(E) (CNN) -- In the Old Testament, camels made for a very useful literary device. Primarily, they represent great wealth; When Abraham journeys to Egypt, the Pharaoh offers him a huge bounty, including sheep, servants and -- the crème de la crème -- camels, in exchange for Abraham's wife, Sarah (though in fairness, the Pharaoh thought they were siblings).
Camels are used later to demonstrate Abraham's own riches (acquired later in life), and ultimately, the good heart of his future daughter-in-law, Rebecca, who is chosen after she kindly offers the beasts of burden some water.
Though these animals play a central role in Genesis, new evidence has called into question their existence in Israel during the lifespans of Abraham and his immediate descendents (believed to be between 2000-1500 BC), and with it, the authorship of the bible.
1. (F) Excavations uncovered the oldest camel bones yet found in Israel, and these dated no earlier than 940 BC -- at least 500 years later than when they are described in the bible.
Read more: Inside the tomb of an ancient Egyptian brewer
"This is a very good example that the stories were written at a much later time than they supposedly took place. The editor of these stories knew the camel was a draft animal used in his time for traveling across the desert, so of course Abraham, Jacob and David used camels. We call it an anachronism; he projected the reality that he knew at his own time," says Ben-Yosef.- if we can't trust the old testament... Then the whole basis for the BIBLE CRUMBLES.

Unknown said...

2.The collection of theological evidenced compared to historical evidence of past events used as a basis to show rationality and logic.
Jesus of Nazareth was born during the reign of Herod the Great.

His mother’s name was Mary, and he had a human father whose name may not have been Joseph.

Jesus was born in Nazareth, not in Bethlehem.

Jesus was an itinerant sage who shared meals with social outcasts.

Jesus practiced faith healing without the use of ancient medicine or magic, relieving afflictions we now consider psychosomatic.

He did not walk on water, feed the multitude with loaves and fishes, change water into wine or raise Lazarus from the dead.

Jesus was arrested in Jerusalem and crucified by the Romans.

He was executed as a public nuisance, not for claiming to be the Son of God.

The empty tomb is a fiction – Jesus was not raised bodily from the dead.

Belief in the resurrection is based on the visionary experiences of Paul, Peter and Mary Magdalene.


2.(B) The Christian world versus the real world

The Bible speaks of a world that you can only experience by reading its books. Look for it not in your neighborhood, your city, your state, your country, or anywhere on planet Earth- it is a world gone with the wind, or much more likely, a world that never really existed.

The following quote is taken from John W. Loftus, at his website “Why I Am Not a Christian”:

The Bible is filled with superstitious beliefs that modern people rightly reject. It describes a world where a snake and a donkey communicated with human beings in a human language, where people could reach upward of 900 years old, where a woman instantaneously transformed into a pillar of salt, where a pillar of fire could lead people by night, and where the sun stopped moving across the sky or could even back up.

In this imaginary world an ax head could float on water, a star could point down to a specific home, people could instantly speak in unlearned foreign languages, and one’s shadow or handkerchief could heal people. It is a world where a flood can cover the whole earth, and a man can walk on water, calm a stormy sea, change water into wine, or be swallowed by a “great fish” and live to tell about it.

Lead Pastor WCC said...

It's been a quite a personal journey for me as I've read the New Testament while being an atheist and mocking the statements of Jesus as many have done in this article. The only thing that I couldn't get past was how this nut case, Jesus, literally rose from the dead following his historical crucifixion. No major historian, on any academic campus, would argue that Jesus did not exist, and that historical literacy demonstrates that his return was believed and even promoted by eye witnesses in the 1st century. This indisputable evidence wrecked me. I couldn't find one respected historian, and I tried, to help me eliminate the concept of Jesus rising from the dead.

So as it relates to this article, I deeply value the difficulties of what Jesus said, but if Jesus truly is what he proclaimed to be, and backed it up via his resurrection, then my understanding is certainly limited, and I'm probably just as confused as the next guy. One thing is for certain, if you want to argue for historical accuracy, the New Testament is it. Who would ever include such harsh statements by Jesus if you were attempting to prove that he's the Messiah? Even the disciples, according to the writers, questioned Jesus. The writers stayed legit to the words of Jesus, and they have now left us with the struggle as to how to interpret this mysterious man they eventually called, Lord.

Tom VonOxford said...

"...literally rose from the dead"? No he did not. "...eye witnesses.."?

The resurrection story is told by only three gospels, Matt, Luke, John but not until at least 40 years later and then by people writing under the pseudonym of Matt, Luke, John.
None of the three storytellers even saw the “resurrected” Jesus.
The Gospels report fewer than 20 who actually saw the resurrected Jesus.
None of the 20 thought it worthy of writing about even though the salvation of all future mankind depends on every man believing that Jesus was resurrected.
Paul did not “see” the resurrected Jesus, neither did the 500.
How do you know the "seen" person was Jesus; an imposter is a good ruse for those who "believed".
Contradictory stories prove resurrection story is false.
There is not a single mention of Jesus’ resurrection outside of the bible. Do you not think there would be a mention of a man who survived the crucifixion in the literature of the times.
Resurrection stories were commonplace during Jesus’ era; did not imply divinity.
The resurrection story depends on the least likely explanation; a miracle. People of the 1st century believed many events were “miracles”.
Unlikely scenarios combine to prove impossibility of Resurrection. EXPLANATION
Four different stories about how long Jesus was on earth after crucifixion.
The method God chose to deliver the story can’t be from a loving God.
“Scripture Fulfilled” is motivating theme.
Most “Miracles” are easily explained
YET – Salvation of everyman from 33 A.D. until the end depends on hearing and believing that Jesus was resurrected.

No major scientist from leading universities believes a man can come back from the dead.

"if you want to argue for historical accuracy, the New Testament is it. " Oh Please.

Luke: Jesus was born after Cyrenius instituted the tax (6 AD) that Caesar Augustus decreed.

Matthew: Jesus was born under the reign of Herod who died in 4 BC.

NOTE: 10 year difference in the dates of jesus birth.
So much for historical accuracy.

Mic said...

Lead Pastor,
Cute story about how you felt about that scallyway Jesus, then you glued together hear-say, conjecture and probably your own personal struggles at the time and the Jesus myth was good enough to cover the crap you were going through.

But covering crap with crap....is still crap.

"Who would ever include such harsh statements by Jesus if you were attempting to prove that he's the Messiah?" That is the whole foundation of cults, gurus and other who seek to expolit, they say 'hard' things, 'austere and harsh' things, because we humans have a mental deficiency and we think if it is bad it must be good. How else do you convince someone to strap bombs to their chest and blow themselves up. There are people who whip themselves for 'penance'. Sorry pastor, your Jesus is a fake, you best to go to your church and tell everyone to be free and go and live their lives.

C E D A R Z O N E said...

O! Steve Wells and every other person that have contributed on this matter, I wanna say a big thank you for such an eye opener as this. You see it's important that we get people that keep spreading Jesus on the internet.

After going through your post, I felt my self being more in love with this Jesus. I really had not made a mistake following this Jesus. The more the critiques, the more my resolve to follow.

Also, thanks for wasting your precious time writing up about a person you believe His chances of existence is between 5% to 1%; He must be really so influential to had kept you this busy helping spread His name over the internet. At least, this can now be an opportunity for people who don't know Jesus before to now know Him and start to research about Him and give us, His followers, the opportunity of identifying them and reaching out to them.

Hmmmm! From what I can see here, there is none that have ever lived that is as influential or as talked of like JESUS.

Tom VonOxford said...

@Samuel Iyamah,

"...there is none that have ever lived that is as influential or as talked of like JESUS".

Oh? Really - none as influential ...as Jesus?

How about Mao Zedong, Hitler, Stalin, Pot Pol, etc. They were all influential on those they killed and the world. Give them 2000 years and they will be as talked about as Jesus. Oh, you meant "influential" as good influential. Ok then how about the Crusaders who crusaded in the name of Christ? Oh wait...they weren't good. Ok then, how about the Islamists who crusade in the name of Jesus' father, God. They and their message are influential. Oh wait...




Mic said...

Ok KINDING ECO, no need to shout. I was talking to an old cop once and he said in the course of his work, there was no need to shout if you are confident and secure in your position. Well I guess ECO, you are not that overly secure in your beliefs. Maybe you thinking, 'does god really exists?', 'If god really exist, why does he answer prayers to find a carpark, but not to save someone from some gross injustice?'

You see, you shout coz you are trying to drown out that nagging voice in your head that is telling you 'this is crap and even if a god does exist, he/she/it is the meanest, most foulest SOB out there and is not worthy of any praise or reverence. Only scorn and disgust.' I would encourage you ECO let go and be free.

And Samuel Iyamah, I actually wanted to thank you! for invigorating the reason why decent people should push back on all religious beliefs. Noting how pompous and full of pride and arrogance you are, there is a greater need than ever to save people from your/christians' charms and lies. You people prey on the innocent and vulnerable people and you always want their money.

Your jesus was 'influential' because christians/churches used that mumbo-jumbo in history to create a fear for the unknown, like an eclipse or the failed harvest.
Some jerk stood up and shouted(coz he was scared himself)"IT IS BECAUSE YOU ARE FILTHY SINNERS. AND ONLY I KNOW HOW TO SAVE YOU!!" then que the moon leaving the sun or seasonal changes that restored the harvest and give me your money. The church then became rich. Rich=power. Power=influence.

The Arabs, early last millennium could have been the most scientifically advance people on the planet with their knowledge of maths, science and medicine. But some crackpot religious movement put a stop to all that, as all religious movement do (Galileo and the church, Stem cells and the evangelicals goons). This is because those who believe in religion are prepare to kill and brutally torture those ie science and decent right minded humanitarians, who challenge their power and money. Nice try Samuel Iyamah.

Israel Arrows said...

The only problem with Jesus' discredit is the fact that He defines time. I was born In 1976 ..thus 1,976 years after the death of someone named Jesus. Some have decided to rename the tune definition as BCE... but the changes not the fact that for some reason, 2,017 years ago, people decided that what He did post His death was so significant that they said "wow. Ok. Hereforth, we define time according to before and after Jesus died." Which begs the question, what took place? It certainly wasn't the events which occurred during His life ...given that the Jewish leaders and people turned on Him and begged Pilate to crucify Him ..and He was equally hated by the Romans who performed the torture and crucifixion ..as they saw the Jewish people as dogs. He was mocked and spat upon by all but about 5 people in His final hour on the cross. Regardless of what He said, His goal/heart was that we have eternal life. Not a bad cause. Pretty selfless I'd say. I'd struggle to give up listening to music the rest of my life to spare those who hated me, let alone be crucified for them. It just a more simplified, non-scriptural and somewhat abstract look at the situation. Regardless of how He was quoted, He lives, was hated, was tortured and brutally killed for a selfless cause ..and something occurred which causes everyone to be ok with redefining time according to whatever events occurred post His death. I'm a Christian ..but a questioning one. I don't allow a human to influence my take on Jesus. If one allows the words of anyone from preachers to authors in the Bible to persuade or dissuade one of his/her beliefs ...they have left their beliefs in the hands of a person. I shall not do that. What truly happened and what is truly to come ..we shall see. In the meantime, I'm not out here arguing ..bc my favorite people are atheists. Why? Because most are analytical and questioning ..not blind sheep or those with agenda as is common in church. I simply can't discount what I've experienced personally. If atheists can respect my experiences cool. If not, all good. Bottom line. Yes, I believe in Jesus. Yes I believe He is the Son of God. Yes, I believe He is the door to eternal life. Am I out to prove you wrong? Noooooooo. Not for the sake of arguement anyways. I just want you there. In Heaven. Whoever you are. Reading this. Asking valid questions which provoke me to search deeper. I want you there. Because Jesus saw you as worth His life. Therefore, regardless of how I'm received, I want you there too. As to the "Christians" posting who yell and quote scripture ..PLEASE stop dude. What Bible are you reading? And where is your heart? Jesus only judged the religious leaders who misrepresented God & were hypocrites. They criticized Him because He hung out with prostitutes, thieves, drinkers ...He went to those He deemed in need. He didn't judge them. He clearly instructed us we can only do the same. We can call each other out as Christians, but are only to love and pray all others ..especially our enemies, and to anticipate them not being receptive to us.

Israel Arrows said...

There were some typos above. *time not tune, *caused not cause, *lived not lives. ...hope you can work your way through them. Phone wasn't allowing me to edit

Smelted Dragon said...

Some of these seem rather weak. It should just be titled "50 reasons I'm not a fan of Jesus".
Also, what do those verses have to do with the tea party? Some of these are very telling about the kind of person you are in that they are only there so you can have a jab at the right.
No one appreciates it when people shoehorn politics into the discussion.

Unknown said...

This Jesus fella sounds like an insecure teenage girl.

Michael Young said...

In Matthew 18:6 Jesus says "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

Terms of Endurement said...

I really thank you for this list.

I still love Jesus/Yahshua. What I am going to say is not to insult you, or anyone else. Neither will I debate. This is what I see and I have a strong discernment when it comes to the world.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.- Revelation 1:8
All these lower case g "gods" that everyone is mentioning are not from the light. They stem from fallen angels and demons. The creator of this earth was here before all, and knew he would send his son in the human form. It was all in his plan, and it was predicted all through the old testament. Study harder. Check out Isaiah 53. It even says a hint in book of Enoch:
"And now to you, O you holy one of heaven, the souls of men complain, saying, Obtain Justice for us with (10) the Most High. Then they said to their Lord, the King, You are Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings. The throne of your glory is for ever and ever, and for ever and ever is your name sanctified and glorified. You are blessed and glorified." 9:3
Slavery was a part of life in those days, whether you agree with it, or not. There were rules, also. Treat the bondservants well and after a certain amount of years had to be freed, and not resold into slavery. Did everyone follow Gods rules? no, and they suffered for it.
All of these verses you listed are taken out of context. No, I will not say why but I will make sure I study each one and clarify the true intent. Souls need to be saved. I don't want to see people suffer in the end times. Worldly knowledge is no knowledge at all.
If you really think about it, the churches HAVE been heavily compromised. Sin has entered into these places for centuries, but, why is it so hard to separate true followers from snakes in the grass? Men since old times have claimed to be for God and they are not. they hide behind the label while they do their evil deeds behind the curtain. Separate the two.
Using the Christian label as a front to do your dirt doesn't disprove the truth behind the belief, it only shows that evil and wickedness are everywhere.
There are people waking up to the truth. I see so many people abused and indoctrinated in the churches and have walked away from Jesus. Again, separate mans evil from divinity. I totally get why people feel the way they do. However, the blame is not the Father, it is the sin in man and his evil selfish ambition for power and gain throughout all time. A good move would be to study at home and ask the Ruach Hakodesh to help you understand as you read. It shall be revealed. I, and millions others see a different truth than millions of you non believers. do you just think we are all idiots? I am telling you no, we are not. Also, listen to testimonies of real people all around the world. You really think we are all lying? NO.
Again, thank you for this list. Now I have something to set straight in the eyes of unbelievers. Trust me, you have it ALL THE WAY wrong. I will pray for you. You can tell me not to, but im GONNA ANYWAY. God bless you and I hope you reconsider your take on scripture. You can spend all your money on church school and tithes, or you can simply try again at home and pray for the Ruach Hakodesh (Holy Spirit) to reveal to you. It needs to be done with an earnest heart, not a skeptical one. Id also pray for discernment, HEAVY. Have a good day and thanks again for this fuel for the fire.