Up to now I've mostly ignored contradictions. Oh, I list them, alright, but I don't focus on them, because they seem to me to be the least of the Bible's problems. Deuteronomy 13:6-10 is disgusting to everyone that reads it. And believers know better than to try to defend it or any of the thousands of other similarly unjustifiable passages. They focus on the contradictions instead.
And I've never seen a contradiction that a believer can't explain away in one way or another. Rarely, however, is a contradiction actually resolved with a straight answer.
So I've decided to help them out. I'm going to try to find Biblically Correct answers to all of the contradictions that I've listed. (They'll be given at the bottom of each contradiction.)
But first, I'll explain my approach. I begin with the believer's most sacred assumption, as stated in 2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof" etc.
So when scriptures disagree, I'll try to resolve the disagreement by using the scriptures themselves. I'll begin by listing the passages that favor each side of the contradiction. Then I'll count the number on each side and select the Biblically Correct answer by determining which side has the highest number of divinely inspired passages. Let the Holy Ghost vote on it, so to speak.
That should work for most contradictions, but what happens with a tie?
I don't have a simple answer to that, except to say that I will try to find a Biblically Correct way to resolve God's disagreement with himself.
So let's get started. Here is the first contradiction on the list.
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Note from the Oxford Annotated Bible for 2 Samuel 23:8-11: Josheb-basshebeth a Tachemonite is an error of a copyist; 1 Chr 11.11 has Jashobeam a Hachmonite. It has been proposed that the man's original name was Ishbaal (see 2.8 n. and 11.14-25 n.). So according to the Oxford Annotated Bible, Jashobeam and Josheb-basshe'beth (and Ishbaal) are different names for the same person. | |
Darn! Wouldn't you know it? The very first contradiction is a tie. First Chronicles says one thing and Second Samuel another. How will we ever know how many guys old what's-his-name impaled on his spear? This is important stuff, too. God wants us to know the answer. That's why he put it in the Bible -- twice.
Well, luckily when different versions of the same story are told in 1 Chronicles and 2 Samuel, we know which divinely inspired story to believe. First Chronicles was written several centuries after Second Samuel and the Chronicler used 2 Samuel as a source, so any conflict between them is easily resolved. The Biblically Correct answer is from 2 Samuel.
And just like that, the first contradiction is resolved. The answer is 800.
Wasn't that fun?
50 comments:
Gen 8:5 was presumably written several seconds after Gen 8:4 was written, so the Biblically Correct resolution is Gen 8:5. Is that right?
No, teavee, I think this one is going to be a tough one to resolve. It isn't always easy to be Biblically Correct. But we need to keep trying. The Holy Ghost is depending on us to sort this mess out for him. (He is a male, isn't he? I mean, he has a penis and all that, doesn't he?)
Actually, I think the biblically correct way of deciding a tie is to cast lots.
"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord." (Proverbs 16:33)
So just flip a coin. It'll land the way magic sky man wants it to. Terrifying as it is, there are actually people who make decisions this way.
But doesn't solve the conflict. If Timothy says *all* scripture is the divine inspiration of God and must be correct, and if Chronicles is also scripture, then regardless of its later date Chronicles cannot be wrong.
Where does god say which book was written at which time ?
Isn't this a human construct ?
Teavee's point is, (possibly accidentally) logical.
If god doesn't say what order his books were written in, in his book, then surely the biblically correct answer is both at the same time ?
It's a stupid answer, but then, it's a stupid book.
By the way Steve - excellent idea on the contradictions.
I'm sure these will be lots of fun...
O, come on, fellas... The ark was tired, carrying all those animals, supplies, waste... it needed a rest. Then back to sea for three more months. No problem!
Steve Weeks
You're right, skepticmatt! Now I'll be able to resolve them all. If there's no good way to know which is (more) Biblically Correct, I can always do it God's way by casting lots. I'll do it in my own lap and leave it up to God, just like it says in Proverbs 16:33.
As for you, Richard, of course it solves the problem. One of the statements must be true, since they can't both be -- or at least one is more true, or at lest more likely to be true than the other. They couldn't all be equally false, could they?
Yeah, I suppose teavee has point, skanksta, on the Gen 8:4/5 contradiction. It's either that or casting lots in my lap.
And I am already having too much fun with this. I've already resolved the first six. I can't make myself stop. I need help!
Steve, If you do flip coins, roll dice, whatever, make sure you do it only once for each question. God will make the first result non-random. If you do it multiple times to verify the answer, you lack faith. Then God will have known this and will have made the first result random along with all the subsequent results.
Just 2c: it is 2 Timothy, not 1 Timoty.
I fear that your head is going to explode if you do too many of these.
Thanks for the correction, Il censore. I need to be more careful if I'm going to correctly correct God's mistakes.
Your right, teavee. I should only do it once, although sometimes three times seems to work better (See 1 Kings 1:1-15 for example).
What I really need is an Urim and Thummim. You don't know where I could get a pair of those, do you?
Or maybe I should use some of Joseph Smith's seer stones.
Or dreams. God often communicates important things to people when they're sleeping.
Or maybe I should ask a witch to bring Samuel back from the dead to answer the question for me, like Saul did in 1 Sam 28:8-19. That worked out well for him.
Or I could ask for an evil spirit from the Lord to help me find an answer. (1 Sam 18:10)
Or make some golden hemorrhoids, put them in a cart pulled by oxen, and send them on their way. If they go to Pullman, then it's one thing and if to Troy, another. (1 Sam 6:7-10)
Or should I strip off all my clothes and lie around naked all day and night? That'd make me a prophet so I cold prophesy the answer or something (1 Sam 19:24).
I'm pretty sure there's an answer in 1 Samuel somewhere.
Keep your ideas coming. I want as many options as possible.
Regarding Question 1. How many men did the chief of David's captains kill?
I take the assumption that Joshebbassebet the Tachmonite (a.k.a. Adino the Eznite) and Jashobeam an Hachmonite are in fact the same person. I think we need to take this assumption because the following verses in each passage both reference Eleazar son of Dodo the Aholite.
I see two possibilities here. On the one hand, 300 is less than 800; therefore, when he speared 800 men on one day he also speared 300 on the same day. On the other hand, these could just be two different days: he speared 800 on one day and 300 on another day.
In Hebrew, 300 and 800 do consist of very similar letter formations. When writing on papyrus or skins that naturally have texture making copies can be tedious. Who cares if it was 300 or 800 it was a lot. The writers of the scriptures where indeed inspired by God... does this type of copyist discrepancy really change the inspired content of the scriptures...no it does not. The scriputes by their doctrine and content bear witness to Holy inspiration not picking apart every textual error.
The thing that gets me with Christians is they blatantly lie about contradictions. They CAN'T be honest and they MUST explain away contradictions with one convoluted and contradictory explanation after another because if they just admit the obvious IE:it is a contradiction, then obviously the Bible isn't the "word of God", then the Atheists and other religious people who don't believe the Bible must be correct, then they lose their security blanket-salvation. Just like what SamuEL had said, my point. They must make excuses to explain away an obvious problem just like this person did. My question to them is if it was the inspired word of God, and God is not the author of confusion, then why the difficulty in the first place? Is this "God" so incompetent that "He" couldn't have got it right the first time? Is "He" so incompetent that he needs us puny humans to prove how something that is blatantly a contradiction isn't "really" a contradiction? If he really was guiding the translators no matter what paper it was originally written on or the difficulty of writing down the correct information, if he truly is the one and only correct god WHY in a million years are there so many "translation" errors? Statements like the one SamuEL made prove to me that Christianity is bullshit. They jump through hoops trying to prove what is a contradiction isn't "really" a contradiction when all it does is make it look WORSE than just admitting it's a contradiction. My favorite is using an explanation that sounds as bad as a child who gets its hand caught in the cookie jar by it's mommy, the kid denies it while they are in the process of pulling a cookie out of the jar. IE:the devil planted the archaelogical evidence that disproves scripture(yes it does exist just as evidence for some historical events occurring also exists this that or the other king living at a certain time for instance), and the scripturally valid evidence in their mind proves the Bible true, but yet the evidence that shows the Bible is full of shit is neatly swept under the rug complete with an explanation that is insulting to my intelligence-the devil planted the evidence there because God was making things more difficult to believe as a test of faith...WHAT?! The "contradiction" makes the Bible EASIER to believe...WHAT?! That for all Christians reading this is why there are ex-Christians who become Atheist. You try to defend your book, but in the process you destroy the faith.
"It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13
Wow... I stumbled across this blog somehow and after just reading your first paragraph it was clear how little you know about the bible and its history. (Though I did read past the first paragraph, and that only confirmed it for me.) Take some classes on the the history of the Torah, biblical history, and exegesis before making an idiot of yourself to anyone educated in this area who happens to read your blog.
OK, Cormack. Explain the meaning of Deuteronomy 13:6-10. Use your extensive knowledge in the Bible and its history and exegesis to show why it is a good thing to stone to death your family and friends if they ask you to believe in a different god.
First of all, it's not "a good thing" to stone anyone to death--family or not. Even in Deuteronomy this was not a good thing, but for the nation of Israel it was a necessary thing, which I'll explain in a minute.
One of the central purposes of the covenant that God made with the people of Israel was to reveal himself to the surrounding nations; to show the nations that He alone was the one true God, above all other "gods" at that time, and that He alone is supreme. (This was necessary in order for the next step to occur, which was to show the world that He, the holy author of life, loves all people and can redeem them, no matter what they have done in their lives, so that they can ultimately have abundant lives of peace and joy with God. But this is getting ahead of ourselves. First it was necessary for God to reveal his ultimate authority, which for whatever reason He purposed to do through Abraham and his descendants.)
All of the surrounding nations at that time had various gods that they would worship and sacrifice to. They believed that if they pleased their god(s), everything they did would prosper (including, among other things, victory in battle). God chose to make a covenant through Abraham through which he would ultimately "bless all nations". The first step was to make himself known as supreme, THE God. The way the nations at that time would understand this is by serving the true God faithfully and prospering as a result. Of course, for the world to see that the God Israel served was the supreme God, the other nations would need to know that this was the only God Israel served. Otherwise, which God is actually the one blessing Israel and making them prosper? This is why God was so serious about not allowing foreign "gods" into the nation of Israel, and also why they were given very unique and seemingly obscure laws to follow strictly - God wanted to give them a very distinct identity among the nations, to make Israel "holy" ("set apart") and to reveal his ultimate authority by making them prosper. (Of course, as we know, the Israelites failed at these burdensome laws time and time again, which is one of the reasons Jesus would later fulfill the law for them in himself and would manifest some of God's other attributes, such as grace, in order to redeem all people, restoring all who seek forgiveness to a loving relationship with God.)
Essentially, you have to look at the big picture. 1) Everybody dies. Will they die of old age? Will they die in battle at the hands of another nation? Will their death serve a purpose in the nation of Israel and/or God's larger plan of holiness and redemption? 2) The nation of Israel, as part of their covenant, would need to follow God strictly in order for the other nations to truly be able to "see" God through their nation.
The stoning was always something to mourn, and was also never meant to be a permanent enactment or a reflection of God - rather it served a functional purpose for Israel, not a descriptive one about God's character. Also, in enacting the judgment, the hope would be that those doing it would feel terrible doing it and move them in the direction of longing for grace and mercy.
(Now, obviously that doesn't solve the emotional aversion people today have to such a primitive method of judgment. God has since put a stop to all of that, at any rate.)
@David:
I AM a Christian, and I do acknowledge contradictions in the Bible. God, for whatever reason, works WITH and THROUGH us, not FOR us. He chooses to limit himself and share power (and thus responsibility) with us. For this reason, the Bible isn't perfect and neither is the Church. And no, of course that doesn't mean "atheists are right". Atheists will believe they are right because they cannot prove God using their own methods, and Christians will continue to believe they are right because they know that, if there is a God, scientific proof is limited to our own reality, not its author.
Carmack,
You say it was not "a good thing" to stone family and friends as God commanded in Dt. 13:6-10, but it was "a necessary thing."
Here are God's words in those verses:
If thy brother ... or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods ... Thou shalt not consent unto him ... neither shall thine eye pity him ... But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die."
Was it right or wrong for the Israelites to obey this command of God? Would it be right or wrong for you to obey it today?
You say, "The stoning was always something to mourn ... the hope would be that those doing it would feel terrible doing it."
Well, it wasn't God's hope, that's for sure. Here's what he said when giving the command.
"Neither shall thine eye pity him ... But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death."
You're right though, Carmack, all that exegetical knowledge of yours is coming in handy. I feel like an idiot already.
I understand your aversion to stoning... Anyone with a conscience would be averse to that. For someone who believes in evolution, however, I am surprised that you do not seem to understand the philosophical concept that morality might also be context-dependent. But I am not surprised that that you seem to assume that the Torah was meant to be applied directly to Christians and Jews today. Most atheists I talk to assume the same thing. Many, in fact, grow up in Christian homes but reject "God" because of the same shallow understanding about the scriptures or their modern implications. It is unfortunate that so many people reject the message of Jesus after only a cursory glance the history behind scriptures or the context from which they were recorded. The vast majority of "issues" people have with the scriptures are either misinformed or would be genuinely resolved after further research. Only a small minority of the issues they have raised are ones that should actually cause genuine wrestling with concepts about God, truth, and morality. (Notice I believe those issues do exist, but I don't think they warrant rejection of all things God-related.)
I don't know how philosophically inclined you are, but in order for you to answer your question you have to consider what "right" means. What is your moral standard? If you believe the "right" course of action in any given case is something that remains constant across time and context, then it was wrong for the Israelites to obey this command. If you believe that a "right" course of action is one that takes into account culture, context, and evolution, then you may have a harder time finding an answer to your question.
If you are asking my opinion, I think that if God commanded the Israelites to do that then it was right for them to obey. It served part of a much bigger and more important purpose than the next 40 or 50 years of life any one of those people may have had. It's good that you place a high value on individual human life - I think all people should. But we place even more importance on individual human life today than was common at the time those commands were given. Back then, much more emphasis and value was placed on the well-being of one's people-group, collectively, than we do today. Westerners in general, and Americans in particular, tend to place a high emphasis on individualism. Even other modern cultures such as Japan place more value on their family or community than they would any one contributing member of it. Perhaps if they read the verses in question, they would totally understand its purpose - just like the Hebrew people at that time, and the nations around them, did.
It would be wrong for you or I to obey such a command today, which is why God has not commanded either of us to do such a thing. To do so would be to take a specific command given to a specific group of people out of time and context to be applied directly to you or me today.
Cormack,
So it was right to stone to death your family and friends as God commanded in Dt.13:6-10 before Jesus, but wrong after?
Why didn't God make that clear when giving that command?
Why did he put things like this in the Bible?
"All thy commandments are truth ... Thou hast founded them for ever." Psalm 119:150-1
"Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever." Psalm 119:160
And why did Jesus say this?
"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven." Mt.5:18-19
"It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail." Luke 16:17
Are there any jots and tittles that you think still apply, Cormack? How about Leviticus 20:13 or Exodus 18:22? Leviticus 19:18 maybe?
Is there anything that you think is wrong -- for everyone in all cultures and time periods? Is it wrong, for example, to burn people to death?
Steve,
No, it was right for the Israelites at that time to stone to death someone who brought idols into their nation (even if it was members of their own family). Why didn't God make that clear when He gave that command? If I say to my roommate, "You need to do the dishes" would you think I am talking to EVERYONE IN THE WORLD? :) Did you really think that the command your referencing was meant to be for all people, everywhere, at all times?
"Why did he put things like this in the Bible?"
Really?? That question doesn't even warrant an answer... (God didn't write the Bible. Neither did Jesus.)
I'll assume that perhaps you meant, "why did God allow the church to include that in the Bible"? That is a question worth answering. In order to understand the New Testament (new covenant) one must understand the Old Testament (the covenant God had originally made with Abraham and his descendants). So the church figured that it was important to include the Jewish Books of Law (the Pentateuch), Books of History, Books of Poetry, and the prophetic books, even though their law does not apply to us.
"All thy commandments are truth ... Thou hast founded them for ever." Psalm 119:150-1
"And why did Jesus say this?"
Jesus didn't say this. Seriously, you need to do some research (although it doesn't take research to know that Jesus didn't write that - just some critical thinking). (Even spending 5 minutes with Google will give you answers to some of these simple questions.)
"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of the least of these commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven." Mt.5:18-19
Now, Jesus did say that. He was implying that He was about to "fulfill" it all. In the meantime, the law was still there (and would always be there, though after it is fulfilled by him everything changes).
"Are there any jots and tittles that you think still apply, Cormack? How about Leviticus 20:13 or Exodus 18:22? Leviticus 19:18 maybe?"
The short answer is, no. Though the law is still around, but it is fulfilled in Jesus. All of it. It is no longer meant to be applied to the nation of Israel today (let alone Gentiles like you and me, for whom it never applied in the first place) as it was before Jesus came.
"Is there anything that you think is wrong -- for everyone in all cultures and time periods?"
Yes, but such a broad and universal question requires a very broad answer. I believe it is wrong to disobey God.
(By the way, the Psalms are essentially songs and letters to God, emotional and artistic writing - not the Law or any kind of system out of which to build a theology.)
I'm not going to attempt to teach you everything there is to know about the Bible - you can do that on your own time if you care to learn. But blabbing out misinformed statements or accusations without knowledge is not becoming. A place to start is by actually understanding who wrote the different "books" of the Bible, who they were written to, when, for what purposes, etc. http://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Bible-All-Worth/dp/0310384915 The author of the above book is a well-known and respected contemporary biblical scholar. If you want to be serious about issues in the Bible (because there are some), I suggest you see what the experts have to say. But if you don't and you just want to have fun posting silly little uninformed straw-man arguments like you did here, go ahead - but acknowledge them for what they are...
Sorry if I come across as rude. I just get frustrated sometimes when people say things without knowledge, and it is even more frustrating when other people take those people seriously.
Cormack,
You have nothing to teach me, or anyone else, about the Bible. So please, stop lecturing.
I understand why you don't want to answer my questions, though. You are deeply ashamed of most of the Bible, so rather than try to defend it, you insult me instead.
Lol... I'll answer any serious questions you have, but most of the assumptions you have made have been ones that anyone serious about them would realize were incorrect, after only 5 minutes of googling. What I mean is that I don't want to answer questions with incorrect premises. I'd be happy to dialogue with you if you are serious enough to at least make an effort.
Will you stop with the googling (and lol), Cormack? Five minutes of googling about religion will give you whatever the most popular belief happens to be -- which, unfortunately, still happens to be yours. But that's changing, isn't it?
I understand that you think your religious views and interpretations of the Bible are the only correct ones. But you'll have to do better than just making that claim and asking for support from the google.
Whatever premises you make, need to be stated and defended.
I'm glad you are willing to answer my questions. I'll start with this one.
Leviticus 20:14 says this: "And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they."
Was this a good idea at the time it was written? Was it right to burn husband, wife, and mother-in-law if the husband "took" them both?
Was it right to burn people to death back then for any reason? Would it be OK to do that now?
I tried googling it, but all I got was this.
I had a feeling you would try to make it sound as though I find "support" from googling popular opinions rather than having established my views from reading books and commentaries by those who actually spend their lives studying the subjects. Certainly you will find popular and mistaken beliefs on google, but you will also find sites summarizing actual scholarly views. If you want to be sure, however, I'd recommend using a "google scholar" search and looking for commentaries on whatever verse you have questions about.
The burning was to be done after they died. If you'd read it critically, taking the verse in the context of the whole rather than prooftexting (singling a verse out of its original context), you could see that the death sentence for individuals was always to be done by stoning. There are places where individuals were consumed by fire, but the instances I can think of where this was done was always by God directly, not by another person.
I already answered the other half of your question, but I'll answer it again: We are not bound by those laws.
You ask if it is okay to burn someone to death for any reason. I wasn't alive in the past, so I don't know about any culture or instances where this was okay, I have no reason to believe it was every okay for one person to burn another to death. (Perhaps during a war, if there were no other means, it may have been okay, but this is just speculation.) It generally was not okay even for the Israelites. Burning was only to be done after death. And I would say it is certainly not okay to burn someone to death today.
You say, with your usual confidence, that "the burning was to be done after they died." But how do you get that from the context? There's a long list of people to be killed in Leviticus 20 (parent-cursing children, adulterers, homosexuals, people having sex with animals, etc.), but only two are to be killed by stoning (wizards and those who give their seed to Moloch). Verse 20, however, says to burn the strange threesome. It doesn't say stone them to death first (or use lethal injection) and then burn their bodies.
God likes to burn people to death. What do you have against it?
I'll grant that it is more difficult to recognize just by the context that the burning spoken of in the verse refers to the destruction of those individuals after death rather than a burning to death - for this to be apparent one would have to understand a little bit of the way the laws were structured in Leviticus. The entire chapter 20 of Leviticus focuses on things often done by those who worshiped Molek (verse 9 is not referring specifically to children), and are to be read as a whole. In the beginning of the chapter (as in other chapters in Leviticus) the punishment for worshiping Molek, which is specified in the rest of the verses of chapter 20, is death carried out by stoning. The rest of the verses describe things that are often done by worshipers of Molek. They Israelites were expected to be cautious of those things and not to tolerate those who practiced those things in their own nation. The assumption is that the death sentence is stoning, as stated in the first couple verses of the chapter. The burning, most scholars agree (you don't have to take my word for it; you can look at some commentaries yourself if you want), was not the death sentence itself but the method of disposal. Those who did the act were not even allowed a proper burial.
"God likes to burn people to death. What do you have against it?"
God doesn't "like" to burn people to death, or even stoning. This is just faulty logic. If a mother spanks her children when they do something wrong, you wouldn't assume that she "likes" doing it. (At least I wouldn't. Whenever my parents disciplined me they gave me a talk first about how they don't "like" doing it, but that what I did was unacceptable and this was the consequence my family had agreed to give.)
Cormack,
So I guess you misspoke when you said this in your previous comment:
"The burning was to be done after they died. If you'd read it critically, taking the verse in the context of the whole rather than prooftexting (singling a verse out of its original context), you could see that the death sentence for individuals was always to be done by stoning."
The only reason for saying that the burning was after death is to try to make it sound (slightly) less disgusting. There's nothing in the context that suggests that the punishment was anything other than what the text says: "they shall be burnt with fire."
Still, you say that most (apologist) scholars agree with you. So I guess you've read their opinions. Could you provide a reference?
God doesn't "like" to burn people to death, or even stoning. This is just faulty logic.
Well, he sure does it a lot, Cormack. Like when they complain too much (Num 11:1), burn incense without a license (Lev 10:1-2, Num 16:35), dabble in astrology (Is 47:13-14), or make God angry (Ps 21:9) or jealous (Dt 32:21-24) or something. And sometimes God burns people to identify a prophet (2 Kg 1:10, 12) or to identify himself (Ezek 15:6-7), and sometimes for no reason at all (Is 24:6, 33:12).
And then, of course, God burns most people forever after they die (Jn 15:6, 2 Th 1:7-9, Rev 14:10-11, 21:8).
So yeah, I'd say it's a pretty good bet that God likes to watch people burn.
But maybe God (like a child-abusing parent) does nasty things for no good reason while making excuses for it.
I suppose it's possible. But it's much more likely that he doesn't exit. Thank goodness for that!
You're right, I spent years studying biblical texts (as well as a few non-biblical texts written during the same time-periods) and exegesis in a university, and I did read a lot of commentaries. I have only read one of these ones, but here are some references for you:
http://www.amazon.com/IVP-Bible-Background-Commentary-Testament/dp/0830814191/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1330306703&sr=8-2
http://www.amazon.com/Literary-Structure-Old-Testament-Genesis-Malachi/dp/0801027934/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1330306703&sr=8-14
http://www.ligonier.org/blog/top-5-commentaries-on-the-book-of-leviticus/
As for the verses you listed, once again, your belittling remarks are uninformed. The fact that God's fire is recorded as having consumed a number of the Israel people is true, but most of the reasons you listed were incorrect, and certainly the one about there being "no reason at all". That just reflects a misunderstanding about Isaiah. The same thing with your misunderstanding of the verses you cited about people "burning forever after they die" - though this is the "popular" view that has been perpetuated by figures such as Dante and other artists from the middle ages, this does not reflect an exegetical understanding of those passages and the language used. I understand though why you would believe this; Christianity has, in a sense, been "hijacked" by churches and pastors who themselves have relatively little knowledge about the scriptures and how they were originally understood. If you want to actually learn, talk to or read some scholarly material. You can't understand any texts written centuries ago and in different languages in our own, postmodern, individualistic, westernized mind frames. Gotta do some research. Unfortunately, people are lazy and will just accept whatever they hear or read.
I agree with you - the god you have in your mind does not exist!
Cormack,
I'm not asking for a list of amazon books. I'd like to see links to online books, papers, or websites that interpret Lev 20:14 in the way that you claim is common among scholars (or anyone else for that matter). A book would be fine too, but you'll have to provide chapter and verse.
While we're on the subject of burning people to death, take a look at Lev 21:9.
And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.
I suppose you interpret that one the same. "She shall be burned with fire. (Her dead body, that is. Stone her to death first; then burn her.)"
And when Judah commanded that his daughter-in-law be burned in Gen 38:24 (Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.), he probably meant it the same way too. ("Stone her to death first; then burn her.") Is that right?
Oh and it'd be really great for you to tell us why God burned to death all those people that I mentioned in my previous post. How about starting with Numbers 11:1? I'll quote it for you. (I know how much you like it when I quote scripture.)
And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.
You say, "As for the verses you listed, once again, your belittling remarks are uninformed" and that "most of the reasons you listed were incorrect."
Well, I said that God burned people to death in Numbers 11:1. What was uninformed or incorrect about that?
I am wary of online resources, so I gave you books like the ones I used in school. Since I used my school's library and don't own the commentaries myself, I can't provide page number. However, if you want some online sources:
http://kad.biblecommenter.com/leviticus/20.htm
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/jamieson-fausset-brown/leviticus/leviticus-20.html
Also, I found here a response to something actually from your own "skeptic's bible" (but I haven't actually read it, so I can't attest to his credibility): http://thetheist.webs.com/atheist/burningalive.html
Same for Lev. 21:9. The verse you threw out there from Genesis 38 is different. Judah, in his anger, did demand that Tamar be burned to death (but she wasn't). This was not the law; the Law was given through Moses, and this was before Moses' time. It was just an angry impulse by Judah.
"Oh and it'd be really great for you to tell us why God burned to death all those people that I mentioned in my previous post."
I do not have to go through every single verse and try to defend them to you. Do your reading. Is it not enough that I'm even humoring you with these ones? I'll respond to your question about numbers 11:1 since you asked specifically, but I'm not going to go through the whole Bible with you. I don't have time for that, and I know you don't really care anyway. I'm not going to keep coming back here. You have some sources and I don't need to keep summarizing them for you when you can just as easily do your own research on your own time.
I did tell you in a previous comment that God himself did in fact at times consume people with fire (the Numbers verse is an example of this). God isn't another human being; this is descriptive not prescriptive. In other words, God is on a different level than we are - He created us and all the laws of the Universe. He can create and destroy (as He did with the great flood alluded to by many cultures); that's his prerogative.
As young children, we get pissed off or cry when our parents discipline us in a way we don't like. We don't always understand why they do the things they do until we become adults. Our minds are simply not mature enough to understand everything our parents do. The difference between what we (humans) can comprehend and the wisdom of God (creator) is a far greater difference even than that of child and father. God expects humans to treat one another a certain way (as ultimately revealed through Jesus), but He, being our creator, is not on the same level as other humans. He does things that seem extreme to us, and we can whine about it if we want but He has knowledge and understanding that we don't have, and He has reasons for things that are done that we cannot begin to comprehend. He created us. Everyone dies. He has every right to determine the meaning behind our deaths. In this instance, He had performed miracle after miracle to rescue the people from their abusive bondage in Egypt, gave them manna from the sky, and promised them a good land, yet they constantly complained that Egypt was better then their trip to this promised land. God put them out of their misery by killing some of them immediately, bringing them into paradise sooner than they would have, and also reminding those that were left that He is not just another human being. The rest who God didn't kill would be stuck travelling through the desert for years, complaining all along the way, and some of them would not even get to see the land anyway. They probably wished that God had just killed them in the fire as well.
At any rate, there's nothing to say that God "likes" that. In fact, there are plenty of verses that say that it grieves God when he does such things.
Perhaps the answer that the author of life also has the right to take life away when He chooses is not satisfying to you. If so, well, there's nothing I can do about that.
I think we're finally getting somewhere, Cormack. We agree on pretty much everything now, with the exception of the interpretation of Leviticus 20:14 and 21:9.
We agree, for example, that God burned people to death for complaining in Numbers 11:1. Our only disagreement is that you think it was a fine thing for God to do and you thank him for it, whereas I think it was evil.
It's fairly obvious that we agree on God's other burn victims too(Lev 10:1-2, Num 16:35, Is 47:13-14, Dt 32:21-24, 2 Kg 1:10-12, Ezek 15:6-7, Is 24:6, 33:12), though I guess you don't have time to make long excuses for them. (God made us, so he can do whatever the hell he wants to us for whatever reason he likes -- or for no reason at all.)
The links that you provided weren't very impressive. They made the same claim that you made with exactly the same evidence as you had -- zero.
But it has been fun talking to you, and I hope you'll stick around. Heck, you can even do a guest post if you want on one of God's killings. Pick your favorite one and tell us why you like it so much.
"Our only disagreement is that you think it was a fine thing for God to do and you thank him for it, whereas I think it was evil."
Lol... I don't know if it "was a fine thing" for God to do, and a lot of Christians also have a problem with it, but the relatively few examples we have of God doing things like that (perhaps a couple dozen in the whole OT, compared with the thousands and thousands of experiences of God's redemption and love, including coming to earth in the form of a human and experiencing suffering and death along with all of us) the God that we have experienced is one of love, grace, forgiveness, and redemption. Because of the overwhelming love we have experienced, we are able to acknowledge the tensions and the things that appear harsh, trusting that God has an understanding that we do not and knows what is best.
Your problem, it seems, is that you think we are entitled. You think the world revolves around you. When God creates, you take advantage of it, and when He destroys, you throw a fit. The fact is that all of us deserve to die... Everyone who continues to LIVE after the any of the crap they do is being shown grace by God, in spite of the utmost arrogance and self-righteousness of people. When people die, that is fair. When people live after all the crap they've done, that is a grace they don't deserve. Yet, it's our job to love one another (the example God gave for mankind through Jesus) because it's God's job, not ours, to judge or punish. (A fact that was different for the nation of Israel, who God intended first to reveal his power and holiness through.) You also think this life is all there is, when in fact it's nothing compared to eternity. So of course you're going to be pissed off when your sense of entitlement to it is threatened.
"The links that you provided weren't very impressive. They made the same claim that you made with exactly the same evidence as you had -- zero." That's why you've got to read a book, bro. These people spend their whole damn lives studying this stuff, and after a cursory glance at some stuff on the internet, you're going to say you know better?? How blatantly arrogant. If you want "evidence", don't look online - go read a commentary, lazy ass. Or better yet, learn Hebrew so you can read the ACTUAL text in Leviticus yourself.
Cormack,
I don't know if it "was a fine thing" for God to do.
So you think it was not a fine thing to do? You think it was wrong for God to burn people to death as he did in the 8 or so passages that I cited?
Hurray! We agree again. (God, I love it when you and I agree, Cormack.)
If we could just get that stoning/burning issue resolved, we'd agree on pretty much everything. But I guess we can leave it at that. You think that God told people to stone people to death and then burn their dead bodies in Lev 20:14 and 21:9 and I think he told them to do what these verses actually say to do: Burn them (alive). Either way, it's a horrible death; one you might expect from a Taliban god, but not from a good one.
Oh well, it's your god. I guess you're stuck with him.
To say that the Bible is inspired and useful is not the same as saying it is correct in every detail. Since the Scriptures were copied by human (non-inspired) hands and by some self-interested parties it is unreasonable to assume that everything must be exactly correct. I think people have the word inspired mixed up with Dictated By. A poet or painter may be inspired by a sunset or a lover, a lawyer dictates a letter to a secretary. The painting and the poem are not expected to be exact replicas, otherwise we wouldn't call them inspired. The letter typed by the secretary is not inspired, and is therefore expected to be 100% accurate. Inspiration and accuracy are not only distinct, they can never, by nature, be found in the same place.
Hi Steve!
Here's some things to think about in sort of a broad reference to all of the questions your asking.
It says in scripture that God is both a loving God, and a just God. He created the heavens and the earth. He is the Alpha and omega and every knee will bow one day knowing Jesus is Lord.
I'm saying this to give a bit of background as to why some of these commands, as you said, are very brutal, there is a key thing to understand here.
We are alive because of God. And God created man so that we may have a beautiful, eternal relationship with him. But because of our Sin, God required Sacrifices to cleanse people of Sin in the OT. Our sacrifice today is Christ Jesus, which is why the Cross is so significant. Today there is no more need for a sacrifice, because the blood of Jesus is enough. That is just to demonstrate that while the OT is still relevant and useful today for learning and understanding how things unfolded, the law of the OT was created for a people who did not yet have their savior.
This brings me to a reason for such commands as you've talked about in Lev. This Loving, Just God knows how sin is like a disease, and can spread and cause disaster among people. In a world in which Jesus hadn't died for their sins yet, sinning had consequences. You see we all deserve death for our Sin. None of us have any right to enter the kingdom of God apart from the Grace of Jesus Christ.
Are these commands brutal? Answer: Yes
The point is God is showing just how incredibly devastating sin is in our life. (not because of the commands He gave as consequences of this sin, but because of how it separates His people from Him)
Now I'm sure this may still not be a completely satisfying answer. I really cant say I went to seminary or have done a lot of research about the OT. Nor am I saying I understand God's ways and reasoning.
But I just thought I would shoot my thoughts about this. just to let you know not every Christian is blindsided into just believing the Bible or not open to correction. There are plenty of valid, logical reasons to believe that this is the Word of God. I have yet to hear of a good explanation to it not being it.
I hope this was at least somewhat helpful.
Have a great night Steve,
-J
J, no point trying to reason with Steve. He asks Christians questions but then ignores their answers because they are Christians. He won't even study serious books about the questions he's asking by people who have dedicated their professional lives to studying Hebrew and Jewish religious history, simply because they are religious themselves. It's utterly meaningless to attempt to engage with Steve, imho. If he really wants to find the answers, he could study the resources himself. But clearly he doesn't; he just wants to fume.
Isn't it amazing how long the almighty needed to come up with the solution, 'Jeeesus'? I am also surprised how many times believers give examples from human actions to explain the actions and motives of the almighty... so, they compare themselves with an almighty being. How arrogant, how stupid. There is no need to discuss with people so deranged. They rely on a mix of half-truths and self-delusion. Do they even have the slightest idea what death by stoning means? Of what do people die in stoning? It is also called death by torture and it is one of the most evil and defiled ways to kill a living being! And your almighty is just? What about sodomy: "The punishment of death, which was to be inflicted in all these cases upon both the criminals, and also upon the beast that had been abused" (http://kad.biblecommenter.com/leviticus/20.htm).... ***and also upon the beast that had been abused*** what justice is that? Punishing a beast? Punishing a victim, the one that had been abused? This is plainly evil!
You don't do a great job at appearing credible when you interpret texts written thousands of years ago, in a language very different from yours and a culture very different from your own, in a face-valid, postmodern way. You clearly don't yet have the knowledge to interpret such ancient texts with any shred of literary authority. This blog is just a place to let off some steam about a very shallow understanding of religion. You'll notice that anyone with much actual understanding about this stuff doesn't even bother arguing with anyone here after a while. Even I've given up on that.
Welcome back, Cormac!
(For a good time read Cormac's defense of Deuteronomy 13:6-10.) Cormac, you see, has "much actual understanding about this stuff."
I recently studied this contradiction, and have found that in fact these two people mentioned are NOT the same.
2 Sam 23:8 "Josheb-basshebeth the tahchemonite was chief of the officers. (also translated as "The Three") He wielded his spsear agains 800 [men] he killed at one time"
1 Chron 11:11 " Jashobean son of Hachmoni, chief of the Thirty... wielded his spear against 300 and killed them at one time"
- Jashobean was chief of the Thirty, which were according to 1 chron 11:15 "The thirty chief men". So if we are to take the verse literally in a straightforward manner, Jashobeam was the head of the Thirty Chiefs.
- 2 Sam 23:8 states the word "Officers" which can also be translated from Hebrew as "The Three". When reading further into 2 sam 23 (verses 29 on), the author mentions two other great fighting men before moving into a story about David, thus showing us that Josheb-basshebeth, Eleazar (2 sam 23:9) and Shammah (2 Sam 23:11) were "The Three", who according to 2 Sam 23:13 were "3 of 30 leading warriors".
MAJOR CONFUSION:
- Josheb-basshebeth led "the Three", which were the best of David's warriors;
WHEREAS
- Jashobean was the Chief of the THIRTY
Thus, Josheb-basshebeth and Jashobean must have been different people and this is not a contradiciton.
@darchaf,
So the Oxford Annotated Bible is wrong then and the chief of David's three killed both 300 and 800 men at one time with a spear.
In any case, it's an inspiring, if somewhat unbelievable, story.
Thank you so much Cormack. I learned plenty from reading your comments. I believe I read other comments from you on some other blog. I need to study the bible and do my own *thorough* research. Thank you for the links. G*d bless you in all that you do. Also, do you have your own blog or website?
Thanks, I'm glad others can see the importance of studying and the need to take into account all the factors of context before jumping to conclusions. I don't have a blog; I did a while back but unfortunately I don't have time to write these days outside of grad school. I'd be glad to talk though; all my accounts on other websites, and my e-mail address, are pretty straightforward (I have a pretty unique name apparently) so you can find me if you'd like to continue a conversation.
Too easy, sir.
In my Bible, which doesn't use the Masoretic Text as its source for the Old Testament as the KJV, NIV, and RSV do, it has the following:
2 Sam 23:8:
"These are the names of David's worthies.
"Jebosthe, the Chananite, a chief of the third rank, who is also called Adinon the Asonite. This man drew his sword against eight hundred warriors at one time."
1 Chron. 11:11:
"And this is the number of David's worthies. Jesebada son of Achaman, the first of thirty. He drew his sword once against three hundred men who were slain at one time."
Note the different names and their different positions in the ranks. I needn't belabor the point that this isn't a contradiction *in my Bible*. Obviously, we're at the mercy of the translators if we're unable to translate it ourselves, in which case we can be misled, just as much as a translation of any book can lead to difficulty.
Let's get to the truly ridiculous part- one man stands with a spear against 800 men in one event and slays them all? I have studied Martial Arts for 38+ years. In all my time, not even the best fighters or teachers whom have studied and trained most of their life and have done so under rigorous testing could hold their own, even with a spear against 8 trained men, much less 80, or 800! What utter bullshit! 800 men could swarm any man with a spear (although they may take some injuries or some be killed) those 800 men would get that spear-wielder. If the Bible is to be believed on this, then why was there a need for an Army...as just ten spirit juiced men could wipe out enemies numbering close to 100,00'! The point here is there is no Logic nor Reason whatsoever from the beginning to the end of the Bible. Modern day folks that should know better, but still believe this crap do so out of fear of being singled out by their fellow believers and they do the same so the myths just keep getting perpetrated over and over as the masses just grow more and more ignorant...yet there is light to be seen over the horizon as more and more break from these ridiculous traditions...however it may be too late as so much damage has already been done to this World, Religion seems to be breaking of into deadlier strains each and every day.
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