Showing posts with label bears. Show all posts
Showing posts with label bears. Show all posts

10 November 2010

Bryan Fischer: God's Grizzly Curse

Remember Bryan Fischer's last post about grizzly bears where he explained how God was sending bears to punish us for not following the laws of the Bible? Well he's at it again.

This time it was an article in the LA times that got him going. The article reported on the grizzly bear problem in the Yellowstone region, where two people have been killed by grizzlies in 2010. One was a botanist, the other a sleeping camper.

He starts off with this.

One human being is worth more than an infinite number of grizzly bears. Another way to put it is that there is no number of live grizzlies worth one dead human being. If it’s a choice between grizzlies and humans, the grizzlies have to go. And it’s time.

So, according to Bryan, since a couple people have been killed by grizzlies, every grizzly must die.

But that contradicts the Bible, doesn't it?

In 2 Kings 2:23-24, God sent two bears to rip apart 42 boys for making fun of a prophet's bald head.

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. 2 Kings 2:23-24

So to God, 2 bears are worth more than 42 boys.

Of course Bryan Fischer would say that the boys deserved it. Elisha cursed the little buggers in the name of the Lord and God sent bears to rip their little bodies apart.

But I'm especially confused by Bryan's closing paragraph.

God makes it clear in Scripture that deaths of people and livestock at the hands of savage beasts is a sign that the land is under a curse. The tragic thing here is that we are bringing this curse upon ourselves.

If that's true, then shouldn't Bryan be on the side of God and the grizzlies? God has cursed the land (for electing Obama, helping poor people, whatever) by letting grizzlies loose on everybody (especially people in the Yellowstone region). God has an orgasm every time a botanist, camper, or "Go up thou bald head" boy is killed by a grizzly. Why doesn’t Mr. Fischer share in God’s pleasure?

21 February 2010

God sent two bears to rip apart 42 boys for making fun of a prophet's bald head



After Elijah went up to heaven in a chariot of fire, his disciple Elisha put on Elijah's mantle and started to perform miracles of his own. First he parted the Jordan River by slapping it with Elijah's mantle, and then he healed some water by adding a bit of salt.

And then he decided to go to Bethel.

While he was walking along, a group of 42 young boys started to make fun of Elisha's bald head.
And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 2 Kings 2:23
So Elisha decided to try his new-found prophet powers by cursing the little buggers in the name of the Lord. Then he stood back and watched what happened.
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. 2 Kings 2:24a
What happened must have been hard for him to watch. Two she bears came out of the woods and tore all 42 of the boys apart.
And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. 2 Kings 2:24b
The Bible doesn't say how Elisha reacted to the slaughter. It just says that he kept going on his journey to Bethel.
And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria. 2 Kings 2:25
But I bet God got a kick out of the whole thing. He's the type.

See Brucker's guest post on this killing: The Bad-News Bears

God's next killing: The Lord delivered the Moabites

02 October 2009

The Bad-News Bears: A guest post from Brucker

Me with the *other* King of kings.I think a lot of people are surprised to hear that I like Steve Wells. I have a personal theory about the way people interact with each other, and it's very telling when you see the way people interact in particular on the Internet. You see, if somebody outspoken disagrees with you, it's easier to dismiss them as a jerk if you don't really know them. The Internet gives us access to millions upon millions of potential jerks, but it gets more difficult to turn someone into a jerk if you've taken the time to know them a little better.

Now, Steve and I are hardly bosom buddies, but we've e-mailed each other and commented on each other's sites enough that I'd like to think we have a certain mutual respect for each other as people, without agreeing much in the slightest on theology. One thing that I do know about Steve is that one of his favorite Bible verses is 2Kings 2:23-24.

"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them." (King James Version)

Only you can prevent the wrath of Almighty God!That may not be exactly a secret though, as he's blogged on it several times, the October 1st entry being a recycling of a post from 2007 as he implied. However, two days before I started my blog, on July 26, 2005, Steve wrote me an e-mail ending with: "I’d like to know a bit more about you and get a better idea of how you would respond [to the SAB]. How about sending me an example? I’d prefer something challenging, like say 2 Kings 2:23-24." So I could tell right away that Steve was a smart guy who knew how to cut to the heart of the matter, and I must admit, while I still have this e-mail, I thus also have record that I had no response.

"Are there any Bible believers that are not bothered by this story?" Steve asks. I can't answer for all Bible-believers, but yeah, I for one am bothered by it. There are issues in the Bible that don't have easy answers, and I agree heartily with Steve that it's easier to focus on why perceived contradictions are not contradictions than to deal with perceived cruelty. And when it comes to perceived cruelty, this passage takes the cake.

But that's the Old Testament...No, I'm kidding. There are a lot of easy cop-outs like that one could take. Actually, looking into this verse, I was amused to find that even one translation of the Bible incorporated some of the (potential) cop-outs into its wording.

"He went up from Jericho to Bethel. On the way, young [maturing and accountable] boys came out of the city and mocked him and said to him, Go up [in a whirlwind], you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!" (v.23, Amplified Bible)

For those not familiar with the Amplified, it tends to insert [in-line comments] to clarify terms, but frankly, I think they're stretching here.

But it's a good segue into the usual explanations. Some people have argued that the "little children" were really young men or teenagers, but aside from the fact that the Hebrew (n'arim q'tannim) doesn't support this (although it allows such an interpretation, as the same noun is used of Joseph in Egypt when he may have been as old as 39), it honestly makes little difference to most people. Is it really less cruel to kill 42 "young men" than "little children"? All other things being equal, I don't think this helps much.

Although I hope it wouldn’t come to that!Yet there is one more thing to say about this. Even if one assumes that these were indeed young children, how intimidating would it be to be accosted by a crowd of (at least) 42 kids who were clearly hostile to you? Have you ever considered how many five-year-olds you could take in a fight? If that linked site is to be believed, I myself couldn't handle more than 23, and as far as I can determine, even the toughest fighter can't take more than about 40. It's not completely unreasonable to assume that Elisha felt threatened, or perhaps was genuinely threatened. After all, do you think 42 boys just stood there and let the bears attack them? If the bears caught 42, how many do you suppose there were in total? My guess would be at least 100. Whatever the age of this group accosting Elisha, they weren't just a few kids sitting around, but were some sort of semi-organized mob. Many have suggested that this was some sort of Israeli street gang, a suggestion I find very believable.

The second inserted note in the Amplified Bible points to something that is likely very important about the story, although the Hebrew definitely doesn't support it in such a direct fashion. In context, it is very likely that the issue was not mainly a matter of taunting over baldness, but that these kids were saying effectively that now that the prophet Elijah was gone (see earlier in the chapter), they wish Elisha would go away, too. If so, this is probably key to the story. These kids, knowing full well that the great prophet Elijah had been taken up into Heaven in a miraculous fashion, mocked not only Elisha by their statement, but the great prophet Elijah and the God that both of them served.

Sticks and stones...Being involved in amateur apologetics for so many years, I've noticed a few interesting things about the Bible, you might guess. There is something that I've noticed about a handful of the more shocking verses in the Bible that I just realized has application here. In Numbers 15:32-36, a man is stoned to death for gathering kindling on the sabbath. In Joshua 7, the whole nation gets punished and one man's entire family is put to death for taking a few items from the city of Jericho. In 2Samuel 6, a man is struck down by God for touching the Ark fo the Covenant. And to not leave the New Testament out, in Acts 5, a man and his wife are struck dead for telling a white lie (not for stealing, see v. 4). These verses have something in common with each other, and with the verse in question here. They all occurred near the beginning of a new phase in God's work with the nation of Israel. When God starts something, like the nation of Israel, the conquest of Canaan, formalized religious practice in a newly-established kingdom, or a worldwide Church, He has this tendency (like it or not) to deal decisively with problems right out of the gate in order to send the message, "I'm serious about this. Really serious." This was the beginning of Elisha's ministry, and God wanted to let people know that this was not a man to be taken lightly, as he would be speaking on behalf of God. (Yes, essentially, I'm saying that however cruel you may consider God to be, at least He's consistently so.)

So what does it all add up to? An unruly mob of kids with no respect for authority gang up on a known prophet of God, and get punished for it. (Some have pointed out that the passage doesn't say that the kids were killed, but getting mauled by a bear even a little bit is serious stuff.) It served a purpose in punishing these kids for their lack of respect, punishing their parents indirectly for not controlling their kids and teaching them to respect authority, and letting Israel as a whole know that God expected his prophet to be treated with due respect. Sure, maybe one can think of other ways to have dealt with them, but the fact that this is shocking and violent is, in many ways, the very point of the story. Like the image above appropriated from Cracked magazine, it's outrageous, but hopefully you get it.

There's a message that is pretty consistent throughout the Bible that non-believers don't tend to get: from a spiritual perspective, mocking God is potentially as serious as--no make that far more serious than getting mauled by a bear. Clearly, that's not an easy answer, but in a very real sense, that's the only answer that makes any sense of this passage. I can totally understand that a non-believer would find that hard to swallow, and I respect that. Does the fact that I happen to believe that make me just another fundie jerk from the Internet? I suppose just like the passage itself, that's for you to judge for yourself.

01 October 2009

Go up thou bald head: 1001 Cruelties in the Bible

Repost in honor of the SAB's 1001st cruelty in the Bible.

I've been revising the SAB as I blog God's killings, adding cruelties (and other stuff) that I'd previously missed as I go along. When I first wrote this post nearly two years ago, 907 cruel passages were highlighted in the SAB. Now there are 1001. I suspect that before I'm get to God's 90th killing, there will be several hundred more.

After posting this challenge to believers, I received a response from GotQuestions.org. They told me that they were writing responses to the SAB's short list of cruelties and asked if I would be willing to link to them. I happily agreed and added links as they wrote their responses.

Some time later, however, they removed them all. I was never told why, but all of the links that I had created suddenly died.

If any other believers would like to respond to the SAB's list of cruelties, I will add links at the SAB. I'd even consider adding their responses as guest posts on this blog.


For several years now, I've encouraged believers to respond to the highlighted verses at the SAB. And quite a few have done so. I've provided links at the bottom of the appropriate SAB pages to all of the responses that I've found on the web.

Nearly all of the responses have one thing in common: they focus on the Bible's contradictions. Of course there are a lot of them (more than 400 are listed at the SAB), and I understand why they concern Bible believers. But contradictions are the least of the Bible's problems.

That's why believers like to focus on them. I've never seen a contradiction that a believer can't explain. They can always talk their way around it by saying, "That's what the Bible says, but that's not what it means" or "It could have been this way or it could have been that." And since the Bible is often hard to understand, it's hard to argue with them.

But as Mark Twain said, "It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand."

I think that's true for most people -- or it would be, if they had read the Bible, which most people have not.

That's why I created the SAB. To highlight the things I understand well enough to be bothered by. And I'm not bothered much by the contradictions; I'm bothered by the Bible's cruelty.

So far I've marked 907 passages in the Bible that I consider cruel. Acts that were performed, commanded, or inspired by a supposedly kind and loving God.

Now it's true that some on the list are minor, and some might not seem cruel to everyone. Some passages are on the list for excessive violence, even when God may not have been directly involved. So let's focus on those that will seem cruel to nearly everyone.

To help with that, I've created a short list of 237 cruel passages from the Bible. In most cases the cruelty will be clear just from reading the passage. When not, I've tried to add a note to clarify it's meaning. But I think most people who read these passages will be bothered by them, though most believers will try hard not to admit it, even to themselves.

Here's one to get started with. (To be fair, I'll try to include some later from the Quran and Book of Mormon, too.) Here it is.

And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. 2 Kings 2:23-24

Are there any Bible believers that are not bothered by this story? If so, I'd like to hear from them.