04 January 2009

How many has God killed?

I kill ... I wound ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh. -- Deuteronomy 32:39-42

See the complete list here.

80 comments:

Lieflieverliefste said...

Shouldn't the death of Jesus be included? From a certain point of view...

Steve Wells said...

Yeah, you're probably right, Lief. Jesus could be added to the list. But it's complicated. Did God kill Jesus? Did Jesus commit suicide? Or was he just another criminal executed by the Romans?

In any case, his death was all a part of God's perverted premeditated plan (if you're foolish enough to believe what the Bible says, anyway). So I'm leaning toward adding him.

I Am said...

33 million is mind-boggling. To hear some Christians, God still hasn't stopped killing since the Bible (Katrina, etc.). So I'm sure his grand total throughout time, even if Christians quibble with a count here or there, would have to be at least 33 million.

Steve, your posts on this inspired me to do some additional math. I've posted the results on my blog (direct link here).

Some highlights (using Steve's and Wikipedia's numbers):

* Any one of the 185 least populous countries/territories in the world taken individually could have ALL its people murdered, and it would still not quite reach God's total.

* Someone could kill ALL the inhabitants of the 80 least countries/territories places COMBINED and still be about a million short of God's total in the Bible.

* The TOP 20 cities in the US could have their ENTIRE population croak on the spot (32.4 million people in all), and God's total would still be almost 1 million more.

* The Beach Boys could butcher the inhabitants of all the places they mentioned in the song "Kokomo", and they'd still fall about 28 million short of God's total.

Tom said...

What about God's people slicing up all a city's males while they're writhing in pain from circumcision? Genesis 34.

Steve Wells said...

Tom,

Yeah, that was pretty nasty. But is there something in the text that shows that the killings were commanded, inspired, or approved by God? If so, then I should add it to the list.

I Am,

Your blog entry is great. And I see that you comment is mentioned on the Good blog.

Tom said...

Well, it appears God did not sanction the willy-dicing followed by impaling. It seems to have gone unpunished, however, and to have worked to their advantage for Jacob to settle in Bethel. Gen 35:5.

I Am said...

Glad you liked the blog entry, Steve. And thanks for mentioning that my comment was included on the Good blog. I checked it out and it looks like a good site (no pun intended). I see your other post about how God kills people is on cynical-c.com, so your series of posts on this seemed to have struck a chord with people.

Tom, I also usually lean towards thinking that if something's in the Bible and God doesn't condemn it, then he's tacitly approving it. But I understand not including it in the tally. God has plenty of blood on his hands even without including cases that might be more open to debate.

fredludd said...

I've always found this bit from Exodus amusing:

4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
4:25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.

I.e., Moses is returning to Egypt to free his people when "the LORD" physically attacks him in a tavern. Mrs. Moses saves her husband's life by mutilating her son's genitals.

What kind of god is this? He can casually smite more than 33 million with a wave of his hand, but in the bar he's as awkward a fighter as any cowboy in a Friday night saloon? Read that again: "sought to kill him." No lightning bolts, no sudden transformation to a pillar of salt, just (it appears) good old bare knuckle brawling.

I Am said...

I don't remember that one, fredludd. That is some messed up stuff. I'm (re)reading the Bible for the first time from start to finish, and I'm almost scared to find out what other crazy stories I either never read when I was a believer or have since forgotten.

Frank Segler said...

Ypu are all VERY wrong and VERY short of the total.

God is responsible for the death of every man, woman and child who has ever lived. It was his CHOICE in anger and fear to make man mortal.

Second, since god basically controls everything, he is also responsible for all premature deals for anyone who has ever lived.

Think Aushwitz, Katrina, Darfur, Saladin, Vlad The Impaler, and all the horrible, painful deaths ever experienced. All of the human misery multiplied out to the survivors.

What you end up with is that God, is actually Satan, the doer of evil. A bigoted slaver, lusting after virgins,

Worse, the bible says there is no sex in heaven. But wait, um, doesn't that sound like hell?

I rest my case :)

GodChaser said...

Did you guys ever consider as to why God killed these people off?

Most of these people openly insulted God, lied to Him, stole from Him or were living in a lifestyle totally contrary to how He designed us to live.

Doesn't the Bible say He is All loving? If He is all loving He'd have to also be perfectly Just, all knowing, omni-present... thats what He claims about Himself anyway.

From yalls reasoning the God of the Bible is eather lying, or doesn't exist. But i propose that Since He is perfect his judgment is also perfect. Just as water will never mix with oil, molecularly, never. But our view of perfect has been poisoned with the idea of that trait also entitling the Being with perfect/infinite toleration.

If me child says "NO" to me he is due a spanking, some for of discipline. If God, given everyone fair chance at obeying Him (like you'd expect a child to obey you with holding your hand while crossing the street for there own safety) and we say NO in His face through our actions/attitudes then why is it "unfair" for God to execute perfect judgment?

Tom said...

GodChaser, you're right. Job's wife must have had it coming since God's wager with the devil is evidence of His perfect judgment.

J92185 said...

God says "I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion and show mercy on whom I will show mercy"

The Bible also says "his ways are not our ways"

My heart really goes out to all of you on this website who are missing out on a loving relationship with your creator.

But the Bible is also correct in saying that man in the midst of our wickedness have set our hearts against God. You are all blind, and you have all been deceived by your father, the Devil.

There is no one righteous, not even one. The wages of sin is death. Therefore we ALL deserve eternal punishment, but God out of his LOVE and MERCY gave himself as a sacrfifce for our sins. And all we have to do to have eternal life is BELIEVE in him. Which none of you clearly do. I pray that before you die you put your faith in Christ b/c one day you will stand in judgement before Him. You will be found guilty and you will be punished for your sins if not covered in the blood of Christ.

Someone please answer this question for me... WHY ARE YOU ALL SO ANGRY WITH GOD?

You were created by Him and for Him and even in the midst of your wickedness and sinning he still died for you. Who of you would die for someone who hates you? God did that for each of you. You hate Him and He still chose to die so that you could choose to have eternal life. But it is a choice. HE LOVES YOU "while you are yet a sinner".

I will be praying for your souls, this blog truly breaks my heart for all of you.

Jenna said...

J9, you're asking "WHY ARE YOU ALL SO ANGRY WITH GOD?" -- I'll venture a guess. He reportedly killed millions of people, for some extremely trivial reasons. And that doesn't count the animal slaughters.

So, yeah, I'm usually angry with mass murderers. Especially when they kill innocent children, and people who complain about a lack of food, and such.

To me, the God in the Bible is undeniably violent, cruel, egomaniacal, and unbalanced... I have a hard time understanding how followers can continue talking about how loving and perfect He is.

The devil is not my father. My father is my father. I believe there may be a loving God. I just don't think he's the God in the Bible.

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Bob said...

Stop wasting energy on all this nonsense. Just throw out the Old Testament study the life of Jesus his worldview and let it serve as an example.

I did.

PEACE

"All You Need Is Love"
John Winston Lennon

Bob said...

J92185: Honestly your argument supports a view of God which is contrary to the expression shown in Jesus.

How do you begin to reconcile the nature of Jehovah and the acts ascribed to him in the Old Testament with the idea of Perfect Love-Mercy-Grace which Christ demonstrated on Earth?

The Law came by Moses.
So did the concept of an insane, angry, judgemental God.

You obviously do not really believe that Christ work on the cross was a work of total Reconciliation.

Go and really study scripture and the ancient cultures of the times.

PEACE


"All You Need Is Love"
John Winston Lennon

the eagle said...

maye you should read genesis chapter 4 verses 13 to 15 and you will realise that there was demonic life form upon the earth .dont forget that satan was cast upon the earth before adam and eve was created ,and also after cain slew abel he said to god that his burden was to much and he said he was worried that someone might find him and kill him notice he said someone not some-ting .thats right demonic life form satans angels ..so in gods defense all those ones who were killed were probs of demonic origin who were possessed ,by demonic spirits .because who really is a killer ..satan is and god says that satan seeks,kills,and destroys ..satans a corrupter of minds and a deciever who not only decieves people he decieves nations...so go read the bible again from genesis and when you get to the part about cain worrying bout getting killed ,think about it .who could have killed him ..well ,not his mum and dad he was thrown out from them ,,god no because he put a mark of protection on him ..satan and his demons yes there the ones but would not allow that .so if god was such a killer why did he not kill cain for murdering his brother ..think about it and study the scriptures well

Bob said...

Eagle you should be wary of presumption and conjecture when interpreting scripture. There is no credible timeline regarding the so-called fall of Satan recorded in the text of either the old or new testaments.
In fact if one were to consider the entire matter literally and hold that Genesis was indeed the first book and Revelation the final book it is in fact contradictory.

The supportive scripture for any basis of a personage of evil in Christian theology is only a handful of verses.
The first two are IS:14 and EZ: 28.

Both chapters are directed by name or title as follows.

IS: 14 Lucifer: Son Of The Morning
EZ: 28 King Of Tyrus/ Prince Of Tyrus

These two scriptures have formed the foundation of the Christian view of a personification of evil or “Satan”. However: Neither clearly speaks specifically of the “Devil” and any basis of interpretation can only be based on metaphor, which lends to conjecture and presumption by the adherents of this belief.

It should be noted that both scriptures interpreted toward the actual personage of a literal “Devil” show the “Fall of Satan” as presently happening or having already taken place in relation to the lifetimes of the two Prophets.


REV: 12

If we accept the record of scripture as being chronologically accurate and its timeline precise it is contradictory. If according to fundamental almost Christianity the record of Revelation is in fact an apocalyptic tome the “fall of Satan” is fully in the future.

THE GOSPELS

LK: 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

The record of Jesus himself appears to support a past incident. This presumption gives full credence to the writings of Ezekiel and Isaiah.

However to play the “Devils Advocate” in this issue let us consider that Christ is both Omniscient knowing the end from the beginning and Omnipresent-occupying all time and space and certainly unbound by the time-space continuum. If we accept this then could Jesus as well have spoken of a future event as Revelation records?


How do you reconcile this?

You also presume that the only life on Earth at the time of Adam was as you stated:
“ Probably of demonic origin" Your own use of the term word “probably” denotes your statement is a matter of speculation on your part.

In response I offer these queries.

To whom then did Cain take as wives?
To whom then was the linage of righteous Seth wed seeing that scripture clearly prohibits incestuous relationships in any manner?

You should understand that the Genesis account of Chapter 2-4 takes place only in the mind of Adam. It is again pure conjecture that Adam was in physical flesh form prior to Genesis 3:18

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Traditionally it is taught that this was a blood atonement of some innocent animal to make allowance for the sin of taking of the tree.

This is more speculation and private religious interpretation that has been added to the scripture to say otherwise.


A cursory examination of scripture supports Genesis 3:18
Here are but a few.

HEBREWS: 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

HEBREWS 10: 6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure

HEBREWS: 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law;

That being said the “Serpent” was formed by Adam in his own soul which he would later call Eve.

Christianity created the personified Devil and his demons.

Study to show thyself approved.

PEACE

“All You Need Is Love”
John Winston Lennon

Hercules said...

This is the ironic part. People get this information from the Bible and that's the only thing they focus on because its an easy target...the same Bible where you get this information from also says that God's ways are higher than our ways [Isaiah 55:9], God is Omniscient, God is in control, and God is total wisdom, implying there is a reason for everything that we might not understand because we are limited.

So if you're going to accept and place value for these deaths and murders then its only right to accept the rest of what the Bible says. Who says you get to pick and chose which one you like best and least? Its an example of Favoritism, custom tailored for your argument...

Its like me reading Hitler's biography and hand selecting certain parts in my favor like "Oh Hitler went to Church so he must be a good person!"..and then looking for similar examples while leaving everything else out like his hate and violence and dismiss everything as whole just so I can construct a biased argument...

what's wrong with that picture?
Either accept the Bible as a whole and its messages or don't accept anything at all.

Josue said...

Hercules is partly right.
But a studied christian do knows that also.
God indeed kills, as you have pointed, and the idea of only a "all loving" God is a mistake as true as seen God only as a vengeful forever punishing being.
There are a lot of christians, also, who wrongly believe in both, too,
that´s why atheists attack this statement so much.

Fragged Mind said...

@ Hercules

Atheists do not believe the Bible. But Christians keep telling us it is the written word of God, or inspired by God, or other crap like that. So we do look at it as a whole, and yes we dissect it because the talking points are so numerous and so large that it takes a whole post or blog to speak on one point.

This particular post of this blog and subsequential posts deal with the fact that God is claimed to be and loving and all forgiving God by Christians and we are citing examples of the hypocrisy of such a statement and the fact that God was a murderous vindictive and jealous person who killed for reasons we don't even allow each other (regardless of faith) to kill for.

So if Christians want to use the Bible as a source of "God is this and this" then we too must use the Bible to prove the Bible wrong.

@ Steve Wells - Wise Fool had an estimate up of 1,000,000 for the 7-year worldwide famine. You may want to look into that.

Hercules said...

Fragged Mind, thanks for your input and I understand that atheist don't believe in what the Bible says. I had a hard time understanding that God is all love especially when I read the Book of Joshua. However, the Bible doesn't say that God is ONLY all love. He is equally "all just" as well. I know you're going to say, "well what about the babies? They didn't deserve to die". To be honest I don't think anyone knows the exact answer that would satisfy anyone but if God is all-just as well, I would assume that those babies are in a far better place that nothing earthly can comprehend or compare. That only presupposes that death is a bad thing. I have my own views on that. That is using the Bible for the Bible.
Also, a huge portion of those statistics mentioned above are biased and do not document the reasoning behind it which makes a huge difference. It would take entire blogs to write all of it down.
Its like me generating a list of people that were executed. Some people would be outraged at the justice system because of that list. But If I told them the entire story of "why" they were executed, due to them killing and raping dozens of women, then their view now changes. Now I'm not saying every single account, but I'm saying several. I'm sure you can agree that Details make a Difference and I believe details should be accounted for.
I'm not a pastor or anything but I may have some answers so please name one event where you perceive that God was a vindictive and jealous person. Thanks.

Starsplash said...

Herculeas, all souls belong to God, Ultimatley he does with everyone whatsoever he will.
Ultimatley God is in control and therefore the responsible individual for everyones welfair.

Jesus says that man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God. So this article is incorrect.

God kills every one.

Fragged Mind said...

@ Hercules

While you make some valid points, the problem is the "Why." People complain, God kills them. People masturbate, God kills them. People get curious, God kills them. People blaspheme, God kills them. People get stuff on a "Holy" Day, God kills them. People disagree with messengers of God, God kills them. People do not follow God's plan because God is vague, God kills people.

We have the reasons why in most of these cases, and some have in depth looks into each (the first 18 do), but yet God's "all-just" attitude is more like a 3rd grader's revenge.

Teacher: "Billy. Why did you hit Jimmy?"
Billy: "Because he called me stupid."
Teacher: *facepalm*

Moses: "God. Why did you kill Josephus the 23rd?"
GOD: "Because he was complaining about the weather."
Moses: "Okay my LORD."

See the parallels?

God's sense of what is Just and what is Right doesn't even come close to what we allow in society.

Let's take God out for a minute.

What would you say if you and I, hypothetically, were out walking in the city, say Albuquerque where it is nice and hot this time of year, and we had like 5 people with us. One of them started complaining about the heat and I just up and kill them. What would you think?
Remember...all this person did was make a complaint about the heat.

Bob said...

I personally do not understand the extended debate on this issue.

The record of the Old Testament must be seriously analyzed and scutinized thoroughly. Much of the character attributed to Jehovah is hardly that associated with a being of high intellect much less divinity.

The very image of Jehovah as represented through the "cunningly devised Jewish fables' to quote Paul was so maligned that it necessitated God to reveal his true nature in Christ.

Much of the Old Testament record is suspect even by its own account.
A great deal of the foundation of the Torah as it pertains to both law and temple ritual and observances are denied by scripture references.

I have often stated that Christ was the mirror of the Father as he himself testified "If you have seen me..you have seen the Father"
It should also be noted that both Christ as well as Paul spoke unfavorably at times in reference to both Moses and the law.

Also as I have gone on record before as pointing out that the Old Testament law is NEVER directly associated with being authored by Jehovah by any but the author of the Penteauch (Moses)

Every other scriptural reference is to the "Law of Moses" the "Commandment of Moses" or the "Book Of Moses"

By even a brief preponderence of these facts it is a foregone conclusion that the scriptures that do not denote a divine being are in fact of human origin.

PEACE


"All You Need Is Love"
John Winston Lennon

Starsplash said...

I agree. I believe that God is much more forgiving in relation to mans imperfections. In fact Jesus makes this statement.

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

People who ascribe purpose to a persons death or to a tragic event.... they could be wrong if they are referring to some spiritual reasoning.

I think it always best to be nonjudgemental in the matter and leave the rest up to God. For one thing it leads to a happier life. And I am lothe to burden those around me to much unless I know they are devout.

Bob I must say that Jesus did not speak unfavorably concerning Moses law but rather against its administaration of it. He railed constantly against the religious hiarchy for burdening the people with too many rules, many of which they apparently made up for nefarious purposes.

Jesus says, "I come not to put aside the law and the prophets but to fullfill them".

He also warns Christians Not to teach a putting aside of the Law.

So Christians are forgiven and live a much more free life and have but to ask to be forgiven their fopas and transgressions and be good people (turn the other cheek and do unto others ect.) and get for free these gifts that had to be so earned by the Isrealites prior to Jesus.

One last thought. There are nuts in every catagory of mankind. And I might be one of them.

jerry said...

What god? :-)

Bulworth said...

Well, uh, at least it appears that God has slowed down the killing pretty dramatically. He did 30 of the first 35 mill all in one shot. Only 5 mill since. Maybe He figured out the mass killing of the flood didn't really work.

Tomek said...

bauer killed more

Blackdog said...

Steve,

Good job, but I think you missed another Jerusalem massacre. There's so darn many atrocities in there it is tough to catch them all...

Ezekiel 9

Idolaters Killed

1 Then I heard him call out in a loud voice, "Bring the guards of the city here, each with a weapon in his hand."

2 And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the bronze altar.

3 Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the LORD called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side

4 and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it."

5 As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion.

6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.

7 Then he said to them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!" So they went out and began killing throughout the city.

8 While they were killing and I was left alone, I fell facedown, crying out, "Ah, Sovereign LORD! Are you going to destroy the entire remnant of Israel in this outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?"

9 He answered me, "The sin of the house of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of injustice. They say, 'The LORD has forsaken the land; the LORD does not see.'

10 So I will not look on them with pity or spare them, but I will bring down on their own heads what they have done."

11 Then the man in linen with the writing kit at his side brought back word, saying, "I have done as you commanded."

Steve Wells said...

Thanks, Blackdog, for pointing this one out.

The problem that I see with it, though, is that it's just another of Ezekiel's bizarre, vicious dreams or prophecies, or who knows what. I guess this belongs in God's planned future killings along with the garbage in Revelation.

...jg said...

Excellent posting...but the math is off a bit on #54 (and thereafter), I'm afraid.

Steve Wells said...

Thanks for the correction, jg!

I think I've fixed it now. But please let me know if there are any more errors.

James said...

My fellow humans,
This site boils down to those who are rejecting God because he has killed off many (millions) of his creatures over the millennia. What you apparently are not considering is that he is the Creator. Therefore, by definition, the creation belongs to him. He can do whatever he wants to with it (you). You have no rights--not to air, not to food, not to ANYTHING. It is all a gift, including each day you wake up alive. You speak as if you and your ancestors were owed something more than what they got. Flawed reasoning. If you make a clay pot, you can use it as a toilet or to hold your greatest treasure. You can fire it and glaze it and make it beautiful, or smash it into a million pieces. It's yours to do with as you wish. God is the potter. You and I and all creation are the clay. Your excuses for rejection of the only alternative to damnation that has been or will be proferred will not be acceptable. Bow your head and ask forgiveness through the blood of Christ, shed for your sins, today.

Jim said...

Aslan, the great Lion (and type of Christ) in the classic series, The Chronicles of Narnia, by C.S. Lewis, is sitting by a stream when approached by Jill, a newcomer to Narnia:

“Are you not thirsty?” said the Lion.

“I’m dying of thirst”, said Jill.

“May I – could I – would you mind going away while I do?”, said Jill.

The Lion answered this only by a look and a very low growl. And as Jill gazed at its motionless bulk, she realized that she might as well have asked the whole mountain to move aside for her convenience.

The delicious rippling noise of the stream was driving her nearly frantic.

“Will you promise not to – do anything to me, if I do come?”, said Jill.

“I make no promise”, said the Lion.

Jill was so thirsty now that, without noticing it, she had come a step nearer.

“Do you eat girls?”, she said.

“I have swallowed up girls and boys, women and men, kings and emperors, cities and realms”, said the Lion. It didn’t say this as if it were boasting, nor as if it were sorry, nor as if it were angry. It just said it.

“I daren’t come and drink”, said Jill.

“Then you will die of thirst”, said the Lion.

“Oh dear!”, said Jill, coming another step nearer. “I suppose I must go and look for another stream then.”

“There is no other stream”, said the Lion.

Jill does end up getting to drink and her thirst is quenched.

But the point, as C.S. Lewis eloquently put it, "Aslan is not a tame Lion."

You might consider that next time you find yourself feebly questioning his actions and motives. It won't get you very far. You'd be much better off to have, "the faith of a mustard seed", as Jill finally did.

heathen_saint said...

Surely there had to have been more than 30 million Asians during the time of the flood. And what if we were to include non-biblical reports like all the tyrants, conquerors, colonialists and other nut-jobs who killed for Gods sake. (Kind of like the non-biblical references for the 'supposedly' historical Jesus.) These deeds were not done without the authority of the almighty.

lisraelopez said...

the only thing about this its at least i know that someone read the bible and studies it but another is that we have free will we are the ones that decide to do bad or good just like a war we have the good team and bad team what would happen if God picks a side ? what if he picks the bad team side would you like it? i bet you wouldnt but what about he picking the good team side i bet you would love and say they deserved it just think about the people that died deserved it it wasnt because he just saw and said i feel like killing people today plus there are happening lots of abortions this days shouldnt we worry about that instead of something that happened long time ago

this is just my opinion
GOd bless you

Urbain said...

"... plus there are happening lots of abortions this days shouldnt we worry about that instead of something that happened long time ago"

~~~

I think the point is that many 'pro-lifers' cite the bible when arguing against abortion, yet they fail to acknowledge the sheer numbers of deaths condoned by God in their holy book.

It is unlikely that the biblical events happened in the first place. However, if the bible is a moral guideline, then Steve's death count is definitely relevant even if these events "happened a long time ago."

Leor said...

Ahh....I think you forgot about Jeroboam's son in 1 King 14:17.

By the way, Lief is correct about Jesus. He should be included. After all, he was sent by God the Father to "die for our sins".

Steve Wells said...

Thanks, Leor. I've added Jerobam's son. (How did I miss that one?)

And I agree with you and Lief about Jesus. I'll add him to the list later today. What verse(s) do you think I should use as a reference?

Leor said...

Okay, I think that Hebrews 10:12 qualifies, but i'm not quiet sure.

Steve Wells said...

Thanks Leor. I've added a Hebrews 10:10 along with a few other verses.

Leor said...

Oh dear, you missed another killing!
2 Samuel 8:1-6: David kills 22000 syrians. Verse 6 says that God was involved with all this.

He kills so many...it's so hard to track! Good thing he is fictional!

Steve Wells said...

Leor,

I think you're right about the 22,000 Syrians in 2 Samuel 8:1-6. "The Lord preserved David wherever he went." But did he help David kill the Syrians or tell him to do it? Probably. But the text just isn't clear enough to add to God's killings, although I will add it to the God-approved list. Man, that's going to be a long list!

joshua said...

Steve,

I know this is really in the grey area, but I thought I'd bring it up:

Acts 1:16-19 (New International Version)

16and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."

18 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)


This passage really seems to hint at divine retribution - not that it would hold up in a court of law, nor does the G man get any mention, but it would seem to be part of the causal formula sin + unforgiving god = sudden gruesome death (that all of Jerusalem hears about)

The pologetics crowd (see http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/143 ) would hold that no, he hung himself, and then his intestines burst. But looking at just this passage (and without the other passage to justify), I can't escape the feeling that there's a little smiting in the air.

Louis said...

Wow. Mao and Hitler killed more people than God?

Leor said...

Why did you remove Jeroboam's death (2 Chronicles 13:20) from the list?

Just wondering.

Steve Wells said...

"Why did you remove Jeroboam's death (2 Chronicles 13:20) from the list?"

Good question, Leor. I thought I'd already counted him, but I guess I hadn't. I counted his son and his family, but I forgot about him. Good catch!

I'll put him back where he belongs.

bikerireland said...

The author of this blog has very convoluted thinking. Of coarse an Atheist. I suggest you check out:
MILITANT ATHEISM EXPOSED on Google, they have fantastic website expounding the Atheist agenda. Well, to on the rebuttal of this persons ridiculous death claims. Most of all the deaths by God in the Bible are justified deaths, just as deaths of criminals in our society are stated as justifiable. The deaths attributed by God, were sinners, and pagans, and the lineage of Jesus Christ had to protected from Satan the Devil, from the very ones God had to allow to be killed. He is the Creator, and has the right to eradicate evil one's. The Bible states: He takes no delight in the death of anyone. Now, let's talk about the deaths of SATAN. SATAN has killed BILLIONS, because by the rebellion of Satan, and his misleading the entire earth, and as God of this system of things: 2 Corinthians 4:4, he has caused the death of BILLIONS in Wars, disease, starvation, old age because the wages of sin is death. So this author has NO BIBLICAL UNDERSTANDING whatsoever, so his comment and calculations are CONVOLUTED, prejudicial, bias, and Militant Atheism agenda motivated. Totally deviates from truth, and just desires to SMEAR GOD PERIOD.

steph hite said...

Ignorance, arrogance, and blatant disregard for truth is what this blog is.

You may think you know "what the bible says" but as for interpretation and back ground, your one line verses twist important words.

John 10:10 sums it up. You, who I am praying for, fall under the first category.

Steve Wells said...

steph hite,

"Ignorance, arrogance, and blatant disregard for truth is what this blog is."

Are there some killings on the list that you think don't belong there?

Oh, and it's nice that you're praying for me. Nothing fails like prayer!

Tom said...

This might not have to do with killing but this is noteworthy to me. I happened to go to church today where I asked: if God is watching over us, why do bad things still happen?

The answer was(paraphrasing): Think of God as a great man holding a dog(Satan). To appreaciate how great He is, he ALLOWS Satan to come to the end of the leash.

So God let's evil come our way so we can see how great He is when we look on the bright side? What a load of crap.

Fragged Mind said...

Wow...this list just keeps getting larger and larger.

twillight said...

Nice frame the list got. Good idea.

teavee said...

Table entries 50,51 (Jephthah's daughter, Sampson kills 30) verse references swapped.

Jim said...

question should be, "How Many Are His Right To Kill?"
Answer: Everything & Everyone.

Shorter, more complete blog...

Jim said...

Actually, since creation the accurate answer is "Everyone."
God could have allowed Adam/Eve to eat from the tree of life instead of kicking them out of the garden and protecting it with an angel, so all death is because His design included death once sin had happened.
Sorry to burst your counting fun bubble, but the accurate answer is billions and billions.

Steve Wells said...

Jim,

"Sorry to burst your counting fun bubble, but the accurate answer is billions and billions."

Oh, I see. It's okay to kill people, as long as you kill "billions and billions."

But God is proud of all his killings, Jim. That's why he put them in the Bible! It would have been a much shorter book without them.

Why are you ashamed of God's killings? God is proud of them. "I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh." Deuteronomy 32.38

Which is your favorite killing, Jim?

Jimmy P said...

Hey Steve, just found this blog, and I am loving it dearly. I'll just be honest with you, I have been out of bible college for about two years now and I have been wanting to go back to do my doctorate work, but God has me doing some youth pastoring that I love right now, and I am in desperate need of theological banter, on an intellectual level, I would like to post on every blog, but apparently you have about 4years worth so I'll just get the chance every now and then, starting with this one: First of all, before we all get two hyped about how many people God has killed, we do have to remember that your number, really is estimated, (and for your biblical number you have to remember that the hebrew word 'elaph' translated 'thousand' we still are not quite sure what it means, Hebrew is in a different language family then say english, greek, latin, french, etc. so the Hebrew language by nature works differently. for instance the hebrew word for love can actually mean bowels or intestines, how does that work? well, sometimes when your in love do you feel knots in your stomach? etc. anyways...) actually over 86% of your number is estimated in the very first listed killing, the flooding of Noah, I'm not terribly sure of the legitimacy of this number either, I wasn't there and there doesn't seem to be much history written on population growth back then (if you found something you should have footnoted it), nonetheless, God for certain had killed a whole lot of people during the flooding of the earth, no question about it, but, you have to remember, again, the use of the context surrounding the killing. Genesis 6:1-8 tells of how evil, and wicked the earth had become, even with the Nephilim, (the plural for of 'Nephal', "fallen ones", i.e. angels, it appears the fallen angels, [with satan] had started impregnating women, I can't imagine that that offspring minded the p's and q's). now the key verse for the whole story for the killing is in verse 5, I'll give you the NASB (probably the most strict text before an antilytical or actually hebrew bible, for sure the most strict english) "Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of is heart was only evil continually." "...Only evil Continually." We aren't talking about occasional shoplifters we are talking about gross people, so gross in fact that God feels the need to wipe them off the face of the earth before they do more damage! They are seriously wicked people, the worse offenders, (I can't even go into how this points to the necessity of Christ, or why we saw God creating such an intense law later, or excercising judgement so readily later, for instance to stone your child (DT. 21:18, the reason of course given in the context, that God doesn't want all of the rebellion and wickedness to grow...wonder why.) Of course the later verses of this Genesis story, says that God was grieved to His heart, He wasn't simply thinking, "hey let's kill 30,000,000 people today." Anyways, the point is only.evil.continually, He got to them before it got worse and frankly how loving and patient was he with them before this point, trying to give them time, until it was just too much? We kill people today when they are too harmful to themselves and others, that's justice, and frankly neccessary, or maybe we should have a 30 million person jail built sometime, we'd all be happy to pay taxes on that...but of course this is only 86% of your estimated total.

Jim said...

That's a straw-man attack, plain and simple. I never said I was ashamed of anything. This world belongs to the almighty CREATOR of it, and YOU and everyone live/die at his whim. ALL life is from him, ALL death is either directly or indirectly attributable to him as well. My point, which you missed, is that ALL death is HIS responsibility, whether he's wiping out armies to support Israel, or from extreme old age.
Here is my earlier post for clarification:

My fellow humans,
This site boils down to those who are rejecting God because he has killed off many (millions) of his creatures over the millennia. What you apparently are not considering is that he is the Creator. Therefore, by definition, the creation belongs to him. He can do whatever he wants to with it (you). You have no rights--not to air, not to food, not to ANYTHING. It is all a gift, including each day you wake up alive. You speak as if you and your ancestors were owed something more than what they got. Flawed reasoning. If you make a clay pot, you can use it as a toilet or to hold your greatest treasure. You can fire it and glaze it and make it beautiful, or smash it into a million pieces. It's yours to do with as you wish. God is the potter. You and I and all creation are the clay. Your excuses for rejection of the only alternative to damnation that has been or will be proferred will not be acceptable. Bow your head and ask fogiveness through the blood of Christ, shed for your sins, today.

Steve Wells said...

Jimmy: I posted a link on the God's 1st Killing post to Wikipedia for my 30 million estimate. It might not be the best source, but it's something.

What do you think the world's population was at the time of the flood?

Steve Wells said...

Jim,

"My point, which you missed, is that ALL death is HIS responsibility."

I didn't miss it, Jim. You believe that God kills everyone and then he tortures them forever if they don't believe what you believe. That's pretty nasty.

But God spent a lot of time in the Bible bragging about his killings. I just want everyone to know about it.

Which killing is your favorite, Jim? The one where he kills thousands of people by giving them hemorrhoids in their secret parts?

Jimmy P said...

Ah, thanks for that Steve, I wasn't sure where that information is from. Not sure that my elementary school teachers would let me turn in Wikipedia for a credible source, but yes it is at least a starting point. Not sure how many people were on the earth at the time of the flood, but then again no one wrote anything down before 3,000 BC, so I guess no one does.

aberopitini said...

"The War Prayer: "O Lord our God, help us to tear their bodies to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded" -- Mark Twain

"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence" -- Richard Dawkins

"The so-called Christian nations are the most enlightened and progressive...but in spite of their religion, not because of it. The Church has opposed every innovation and discovery from the day of Galileo down to our own time, when the use of anesthetic in childbirth was regarded as a sin because it avoided the biblical curse pronounced against Eve. And every step in astronomy and geology ever taken has been opposed by bigotry and superstition." -- Mark Twain

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further" -- Richard Dawkins

And my favourite...

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully" -- Richard Dawkins

Jim said...

Rhetorical questions and BS.
How about you answer the basic question:

Does God Have the Right to do With His Creation Whatever He Wants to?

If not, why not?

Tom said...

Jim said,
Does God Have the Right to do With His Creation Whatever He Wants to?

Let's ignore the crazy capitalizations on your question and give the following answers:

If "Yes", and the Creator can do whatever he wants with his creation, then it does not really make sense for him to sacrifice himself for it. He could simply cherry-pick the properly worshiping automatons from the misfits.

If he doesn't cherry-pick, but instead keeps the misfits around for entertainment value, and even stirs the pot at his whimsy, well, that reminds me of my days as a 6 year old: I would find a simple ant hill and maim some of the bugs and watch how they would writhe and how other ants would try and rescue or salvage what they could of their friends and their colony. Their behavior was fascinating to watch. I would even try to aid their rescue efforts. What would you say of my behavior? Stupid, sick fun you may call it. It was detestable really, and by the time I was 7 I recognized my behavior as such.

Now, if a 7 year old human can determine that such behavior is cruel and mean-spirited (even though I witnessed some extraordinary teamwork I never knew existed), don't you think the Creator who has always been and is infinite Wisdom would also have the decency to know how to behave lovingly? C'mon, man! Either come up with a better story of why Jesus died for your sins or demand more from your God!

Now let's say the answer is "No". God does not have the right to do whatever he wants with his Creation. Then he is either not all powerful or he chooses how to interface with his Creation. That is, perhaps he is all powerful, but is judicious in how he employs and displays his power. In this case, how can any theology reconcile these killings?

Steve Wells said...

Jimmy: I've looked into the population question a bit more and have found a source that is often cited: Atlas of World Population History by Colin McEvedy and Richard Jones. (See here for example.) I found a copy at the library.

McEvedy and Jones estimate the human population to have been 14 million in 3000 BCE and 27 million in 2000 BCE. Since the flood took place around 2400 BCE (if you believe the Bible, that is), that would mean that God drowned 20 million or so. I've seen estimates that are more than twice as high, but since I'm trying to be conservative, I should probably drop my estimate to 20 million to agree with McEvedy and Jones.

Steve Wells said...

Jim,

"Does God Have the Right to do With His Creation Whatever He Wants to?"

This is the silliest of all excuses for God's killings. God made sentient creatures, so he can torture and kill them if he wants to.

If God made living things, then he has a responsibility to protect them from harm. As Tom pointed out, even a six year old knows that it is wrong to torment ants just for the hell of it.

Jimmy P said...

Okay Steve, I really could care less of the number, my point is that your number is an estimate. And seems that people are using it as a solid number...i.e. "I AM" in the third posting.

Steve Wells said...

Jimmy P,

"I really could care less of the number."

I see. You asked where I got the number, but couldn't care less about the number itself. Tens of millions of people drown and it's all just hunky dory to Jimmy P.

Jimmy P said...

What about eveything else I have posted?

Jimmy P said...

well, thanks Steve for the conversation. I guess your not interested in actually discussing anything, sounds like you just want to pull things out of context. Was looking for dialogue, but it seems like your a little more interested in proving a point. see ya.

Steve Wells said...

Sorry Jimmy P.

I don't have much time to spend in discussions, so I respond when a response seems necessary (as when you asked for my source about the human population at the time of Noah's flood) or when I am especially interested in the topic being discussed. Otherwise I spend my online time working at the SAB or the blog.

Feel free to comment, though. I do read them (if they're not too long, that is). But don't be insulted if I don't always respond.

Jimmy P said...

Steve, not so much insulted. Thanks anyway.

Reinard said...

Ummm, we people are so puny and insignificant, we think we know everything. We rationalise, we argue and speculate about things we know nothing of. We're like mini-gods. No wonder God says He created us in His image. It's time we realize we know jack. Who knows why God kills millions of people, frankly I don't care. I trust the Creator of the universe a bit more than some blog. Thank you for giving my eternal life Jesus!!

Ceco; said...

Which version of the Bible was used for "Drunk With Blood: God's killings in the Bible"

Steve Wells said...

Ceco,

I used the King James Version, but I think the results would have been much the same no matter which version I used. Do you think I would get another result with a different version?

Stephen said...

fredludd said...

What kind of god is this? He can casually smite more than 33 million with a wave of his hand, but in the bar he's as awkward a fighter as any cowboy in a Friday night saloon? Read that again: "sought to kill him." No lightning bolts, no sudden transformation to a pillar of salt, just (it appears) good old bare knuckle brawling.
Mon Jan 12, 02:09:00 AM 2009


Not just awkward... impotent! "Sought" (past tense of "to seek") has a connotation of intent, yet Moses survives. God can't have changed his mind, otherwise knowing that he wasn't actually going to kill Moses,he wouldn't have "sought" to. He just FAILed. Too bad he couldn't avail himself of Matthew 7:7!

Blogger Steve Wells said...

I used the King James Version, but I think the results would have been much the same no matter which version I used. Do you think I would get another result with a different version?
Wed Sep 29, 07:18:00 PM 2010


Bart Ehrman doesn't think too much of the authenticity of the KJB, it seems. In "Misquoting Jesus", he says (p.83) "It was the inferior textual form of the Texus Receptus that stood at the base of the earliest English translations, including the King James Bible, and other editions until near the end of the nineteenth century."
But it probbaly wouldn't make much difference in the number of killings. In my (extremely) limited experience comparing the KJB to the Revised Standard Version, the latter just uses more euphemisms for what the lord is up to.

Of course, if they had based the KJB on the Texas Receptas, it would still be taught in public schools today!
Steve Weeks

BlueberrySky said...

So many people I encounter that are Christians believe you shouldn't take the bible literally. I tell them if it's actually the word of God then you should take it literally. Then they would respond that we don't understand God's ways. They would agree that God is a contradiction. It's sad that so many people think this way. They live in a fantasy world.