17 May 2013

How many has God killed? Complete list and estimated total (Including Apocryphal killings)

Drunk With Blood Audiobook: Introduction
I kill ... I wound ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and mine sword shall devour flesh. -- Deuteronomy 32:39-42
The table shows two numbers: the number given by the Bible, if any, and an estimate, when no biblical number is available.

Total number killed by God in the Bible
- Using biblical numbers only: 2,821,364
 - With estimates: 25 million

(The table has been updated to include God's killings in the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical books. I'll be adding the missing Apocryphal stories in the next few days.)

Killing Event Reference Bible's Number Estimate
1 The Flood of Noah Gen 7:23 20,000,000
2 Abraham's war to rescue Lot Gen 14:17-19 1,000
3 Sodom and Gomorrah Gen 19:24 2,000
4 Lot's wife Gen 19:26 1 1
5 While they were sore, Dinah's brethren slew all the males Gen 34:1-31, Judith 9:2-3 2 1,000
6 Er for being wicked in the sight of the Lord Gen 38:7 1 1
7 Onan for spilling his seed Gen 38:10 1 1
8 A seven year worldwide famine Gen 41:25-54 70,000
9 There will be blood: The first plague of Egypt Ex 7:15-27 , Wis 11:7-8 10,000
10 The seventh plague: hail Ex 9:25 300,000
11 Firstborn Egyptian children Ex 12:29-30 500,000
12 The Lord took off their chariot wheels Ex 14:8-26 600 5,000
13 Amalekites Ex 17:13 1,000
14 Who is on the Lord's side?: Forcing friends and family to kill each other Ex 32:27-28 3,000 3,000
15 Aaron's golden calf Ex 32:35 1,000
16 God burns Aaron's sons to death for offering "strange fire" Lev 10:1-3 2 2
17 A blasphemer is stoned to death Lev 24:10-23 1 1
18 When the people complained, God burned them to death Num 11:1 100
19 While the flesh was still between their teeth, the Lord smote them will a very great plague Num 11:33 10,000
20 Ten scouts are killed for their honest report Num 14:35-45 10 110
21 A man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day is stoned to death Num 15:32-35 1 1
22 Korah, his companions, and their families are buried alive Num 16:27 3 9
23 God burns 250 people to death for burning incense Num 16:35 250 250
24 God kills 14,700 for complaining about God's killings Num 16:49 14,700 14,700
25 The massacre of the Aradies Num 21:1-2 3,000
26 God sent serpents to bite people for complaining about the lack of food and water Num 21:6 100
27 Phineas's double murder: A killing to end God's killing Num 25:1-11 24,002 24,002
28 The Midianite massacre: Have ye saved all the women alive? Num 31:1-35 6 200,000
29 God slowly killed the Israelite army Dt 2:14-16 500,000
30 God the giant killer Dt 2:21-22 5,000
31 God hardens King Sihon's heart so all his people can be killed Dt 2:33-34 1 5,000
32 Og and all the men women, and children in 60 cities Dt 3:6 1 60,000
33 The Jericho massacre Jos 6:21 1,000
34 Achan and his family Jos 7:10-26 1 5
35 The Ai massacre Jos 8:1-25 12,000 12,000
36 God stops the sun so Joshua can get his killing done in the daylight Jos 10:10-11 5,000
37 Five kings killed and hung on trees Jos 10:26 5 10,000
38 Joshua utterly destroyed all that breathed as the Lord commanded Jos 10:28-42 7 7,000
39 The genocide of twenty cities: There was not any left to breathe Jos 11:8-12 2 20,000
40 The Anakim: some more giant killing Jos 11:20-21 5,000
41 The Lord delivered the Canaanites and Perizzites Jg 1:4 10,000 10,000
42 The Jerusalem massacre Jg 1:8 1,000
43 Five massacres, a wedding, and God-proof iron chariots Jg 1:9-25 5,000
44 The Lord delivered Chushanrishathaim Jg 3:7-10 1 1,000
45 Ehud delivers a message from God Jg 3:15-22 1 1
46 God delivers 10,000 lusty Moabites Jg 3:28-29 10,000 10,000
47 Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an ox goad Jg 3:31 600 600
48 Barak and God massacre the Canaanites Jg 4:15-16 1,000
49 Jael pounds a tent stake through a sleeping man's skull Jg 4:18-22 1 1
50 Gideon's story: The Lord set every man's sword against his fellow Jg 7:22 120,000 120,000
51 A city is massacred and 1000 burn to death because of God's evil spirit Jg 9:23-27 1,001 2,000
52 The Ammonite massacre Jg 11:32-33 20,000
53 Jephthah's daughter Jg 11:39 1 1
54 42,000 die for failing the "shibboleth" test Jg 12:4-7 42,000 42,000
55 Samson murdered 30 men for their clothes Jg 14:19 30 30
56 Samson killed 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass Jg 15:14-15 1,000 1,000
57 Samson killed 3000 in a suicide terrorist attack Jg 16:27-30 3,000 3,000
58 A holy civil war (it had something to do with rotting concubine body part messages) Jg 20:35-37 65,100 65,100
59 The end of Judges: two genocides and 200 stolen virgins Jg 21:10-14 4,000
60 God killed Eli's sons and 34,000 Israelite soldiers 1 Sam 2:25, 4:11 34,002 34,002
61 God smote them with hemorrhoids in their secret parts 1 Sam 5:1-12 3,000
62 50,070 killed for looking into the ark of the Lord 1 Sam 6:19 50,070 50,070
63 The Lord thundered a great thunder upon the Philistines 1 Sam 7:10-11 1,000
64 Another Ammonite massacre (and another God-inspired body part message) 1 Sam 11:6-13 1,000
65 Jonathan's first slaughter 1 Sam 14:12-14 20 20
66 God forces the Philistines to kill each other 1 Sam 14:20 1,000
67 The Amalekite genocide 1 Sam  15:2-3 10,000
68 Samuel hacks Agag to death before the Lord 1 Sam 15:32-33 1 1
69 In the valley of Elah: Goliath 1 Sam 17:51, 2 Sam 21:19 1 1
70 David buys a wife with 200 Philistine foreskins 1 Sam  18:27 200 200
71 The Lord said to David, Go and smite the Philistines 1 Sam 23:2-5 10,000
72 God killed Nabal (and David got his wife and other stuff) 1 Sam 25:38 1 1
73 David commits random acts of genocide for the Philistines 1 Sam 27:8-11 60,000
74 David spends the day killing Amalekites 1 Sam 30:17 1,000
75 God kills Saul, his sons, and his soldiers (because Saul didn't kill all the Amalekites) 1 Sam 31:2, 2 Chr 10:6 4 100
76 David kills the messenger 2 Sam 1:15 1 1
77 David killed, mutilated, and hung Rechab and Baanah 2 Sam 4:12 2 2
78 God helps David smite the Philistines from the front and the rear 2 Sam 5:19-25 2,000
79 God killed Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling 2 Sam 6:6-7, 1 Chr 13:9-10 1 1
80 David killed two-thirds of the Moabite POWs and enslaved the rest 2 Sam 8:2 667
81 And the Lord gave David victory wherever he went 2 Sam 8 - 10 65,850 66,850
82 David killed every male in Edom 2 Sam 8:13-14, 1 Kg 11:15-16, 1 Chr 18:12, Ps 60:1 15,000 25,000
83 Thus did David do to all the children of Ammon 2 Sam 11:1, 1 Chr 20:1 1,000
84 God slowly kills a baby 2 Sam 12:14-18 1 1
85 Seven sons of Saul are hung up before the Lord 2 Sam 21:1-9 7 3,000
86 David's mighty men and their amazing killings 2 Sam 23, 1 Chr 11 1,403 3,400
87 God killed 70,000 because of David had a census that God (or Satan) told him to do 2 Sam 24:15, 1 Chr 21:14 70,000 200,000
88 Solomon murdered Job and Shimei (per David's deathbed wish) 1 Kg 2:29-46 2 2
89 A tale of two prophets 1 Kg 13:11-24 1 1
90 Jeroboam's son: God kills another child 1 Kg 14:17 1 1
91 Jeroboam's family 1 Kg 15:29 10
92 Baasha's family and friends 1 Kg 16:11-12 20
93 Zimri burns to death 1 Kg 16:18-19 1 1
94 The drought of Elijah 1 Kg 17:1, Luke 4:25, James 5:17-18 3,000
95 Elijah kills 450 religious leaders in a prayer contest 1 Kg 18:22-40 450 450
96 The first God-assisted slaughter of the Syrians 1 Kg 20:20-21 10,000
97 God killed 100,000 Syrians for calling him a god of the hills 1 Kg 20:28-29 100,000 100,000
98 God killed 27,000 Syrians by making a wall fall on them 1 Kg 20:30 27,000 27,000
99 God sent a lion to kill a man for not smiting a prophet 1 Kg 20:35-36 1 1
100 God killed Ahab for not killing a captured king 1 Kg 20:42, 22:35 1 1
101 God burned 102 men to death for asking Elijah to come down from his hill 2 Kg 1:10-12 102 102
102 God killed Ahaziah for asking the wrong God 2 Kg 1:16-17, 2 Chr 22:7-9 1 1
103 God sent bears to kill 42 boys for making fun of a prophet's bald head 2 Kg 2:23-24 42 42
104 The Lord delivered the Moabites 2 Kg 3:18-25 5,000
105 A skeptic is trampled to death 2 Kg 7:2-20 1 1
106 God's seven year famine 2 Kg 8:1 7,000
107 Jehoram of Israel 2 Kg 9:24 1 1
108 Jezebel 2 Kg 9:33-37 1 1
109 Ahab's sons: 70 heads in two baskets 2 Kg 10:6-10 70 70
110 Ahab's hometown family, friends, and priests 2 Kg 10:11 20
111 Jehu killed Ahaziah's family 2 Kg 10:12-13, 2 Chr 22:7-9 42 42
112 Jehu and his partner kill the rest of Ahab's family 2 Kg 10:17 20
113 Jehu assembled the followers of Baal and then slaughtered them all 2 Kg 10:18-25 1,000
114 Mattan the priest of Baal and Queen Athaliah 2 Kg 11:17-20 2 2
115 God sent lions to eat those who didn't fear him enough 2 Kg 17:25-26 10
116 An angel killed 185,000 sleeping soldiers 2 Kg 19:34, 37:36 185,000 185,000
117 God caused King Sennacherib to be killed by his sons 2 Kg 19:37, Tobit 1:21 1 1
118 Josiah killed all the priests of the high places 2 Kg 23:20 100
119 Just another holy war 1 Chr 5:18-22 50,000
120 God killed a half million Israelite soldiers 2 Chr 13:17-18 500,000 500,000
121 Jeroboam 2 Chr 13:20 1 1
122 God killed a million Ethiopians 2 Chr 14:9-14 1,000,000 1,000,000
123 Friendly fire: God forced "a great multitude" to kill each other 2 Chr 20:22-25 30,000
124 God made Jehoram's bowels fall out 2 Chr 21:14-19 1 1
125 God killed Jehoram's sons 2 Chr 22:1 3
126 Ahaziah of Judah 2 Chr 22:7-8 1 1
127 Joash, the princes, and army of Judah 2 Chr 24:20-25 1 10,000
128 God destroyed Amaziah 2 Chr 25:15-27 1 1,000
129 God smote Ahaz with the king of Syria 2 Chr 28:1-5 1 10,000
130 God killed 120,000 valiant men for forsaking him 2 Chr 28:6 120,000 120,000
131 The fall of Jerusalem 2 Chr 36:16-17 10,000
132 The Purim killings: God hath done these things Esther 2 - 9, 10:4 75,813 75,813
133 God and Satan kill Job's children and slaves Job 1:18-19 10 60
134 Hananiah Jer 28:15-16 1 1
135 Ezekiel's wife Ezek 24:15-18 1 1
136 Oh! Susanna Dan 13:6-62 2 2
137 Judith is blessed above all women (for cutting off a sleeping man's head) Judith 13:6-10 1 1
138 The Judith massacre: hang ye up this head upon our walls Judith 15:1-6 1,000
139 Mathathias's double murder 1 Mac 2:24-25 2 2
140 Mathathias and his friends slay the wicked sinners 1 Mac 2:44 100
141 God killed Andronicus, the sacrilegious wretch 2 Mac 4:38 1 1
142 A Jewish mob killed Lysimachus, the sacrilegious fellow 2 Mac 4:42 1 1
143 God helped Judas Machabeus destroy the wicked 1 Mac 3:1-26, 2 Mac 8:5-6 800 4,900
144 Judas and his unarmed men kill 3000 of Gorgias's soldiers 1 Mac 3:44-4:24 3,000 3,000
145 The Hanukkah killings 1 Mac 4:34-5:7 5,000 17,000
146 The Machabees brothers slaughter the heathens 1 Mac 5:21-51 11,000 37,000
147 Nicanor's army: The Almighty being their helper, they slew above nine thousand men 1 Mac 7:32-47, 2 Mac 8:24, 15:27 147,002 147,002
148 Jonathan and Simon destroy the wicked out of Israel 1 Mac  9:46-49, 2 Mac  8:30-33, 10:61 1,000 1,200
149 Five heavenly horsemen cast darts and fireballs at the enemy 2 Mac 8:32-10:38 21,103 21,400
150 God killed Antiochus with an incurable bowel disease 2 Mac 9:5-28 1 1
151 Idumeans, traitors, and Jews in two towers 2 Mac 10:16-17 40,000 40,100
152 Nicanor's head: A manifest sign of the help of God 1 Mac 7:33-48, 2 Mac  15:1-35 35,000 35,000
153 Aliens at Cades 1 Mac 11:74 3,000 3,000
154 John burns to death 2000 in the tower of Azotus 1 Mac 16:10 2,000 2,000
155 God sent wasps to slowly destroy people Wisdom 12:8-9 1,000
156 Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:5-10 2 2
157 Herod Aggripa Acts 12:23 1 1
158 Jesus Rom 8:32, 1 Pet 1:1820 1 1
Totals 2,821,364 24,994,828

482 comments:

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james bond said...

Mada

we do not need a self-proclaimed "holy" book to know that addictive behaviour of almost any kind is damaging and that there should be limits on all pleasures, for they pass the point of being pleasurable and can cause harm to us. Not rocket science and not revelatory. And your "lust of the flesh" has a very quaint and archaic origin that conjures up bespectacled men in pulpits with big musty bibles in front of them and is intended to be a judgment and something we are meant to fear or think of as wrong. But lust is related to our flesh, or our bodies, and is normally used in that context: it describes the strong or intense physiological sexual urge or drive to be sexually satisfied. Saying "lust of the flesh" really sort of becomes a tautology. Like "hunger of the stomach" or "vision of the eye". Lust of course needs to be directed, controlled and not allowed to rule our lives: not rocket science. Just sensible stuff. Biblical orders on the matter are utterly unnecessary. As is everything else in your bible. Don't get me started on the really disgusting, vile, inhumane, nasty, sadistic, homicidal, and hateful biblical passages and orders, which of course you are gently avoiding when you bring up the passages about love and wine and fragrant oils.

Tom Vouray said...

@dee:

"I have to say I'm curious what might have happened in your life that bent you that way (anti-God)."

Bent? Am I bent? Hang on a second, let me go check the mirror.

I am back. Not bent. Straight as an arrow, although I could lose a little weight.



"Jesus was for the Jews first, God did not forsake them. But a lot of them were not willing to accept Jesus for one reason or another and continued in their old ways. Similarly, today there are a lot of people who call themselves Christians but don't actually follow Christ. I'm not the judge of who that is but God looks at our hearts not how often we go or how much money we give to church."

You have missed the point. Modern Jewish believers do not believe in or worship jesus. Jesus clearly said the only way was only through him. Therefore, every jew that is dying right now as you read these words is not going to heaven, according to jesus. That seems to make Christians feel uncomfortable when that is pointed out. Even Dee goes off on a tangent about true versus false Christian believers instead of facing the issue. So how about it Dee, do Jews prove jesus wrong, and go to heaven?

@Dee and Mada124:
"Reading Scripture can't have been the only thing."
"Id urge them to read the whole chapter rather than a verse or 2."

Sorry to disappoint you, Dee, but that was all it took. Basically, I agree with Mada's position, except that everyone should read every part of the bible, particularly the parts that your religious leaders don't want you to read.

Dee said...

Ok, so if reading the Bible made you an atheist, what would were you before you read it? That's what I'm referring to by the word "bent", sorry, not literally, but in regards to your life path. Where I was bent towards trusting in Christ, you were bent against it. No offence was meant, but maybe it wasn't a great word to use - my apologies. I'm just curious about the same action done by intelligent people (reading the whole Bible) bringing about opposite results.

"everyone should read every part of the bible, particularly the parts that your religious leaders don't want you to read."
I agree that everyone should read the whole Bible. I don't know which church pastors or other religious leaders don't want their congregations to do that. My own church encourages us all the read all of it for ourselves and ask questions. They would be thrilled if that was actually the case. I personally have read through from cover to cover at least 6 or 7 times over the past decade.

In regards to the Jews: you're correct. Their leaders have unfortunately led them astray for a couple of millennia. Without Jesus they won't make it to heaven. Without Jesus no one can make it to Heaven. With Him, anyone can. Of course it's uncomfortable to say - I also think it's uncomfortable for doctors to tell their patients' families that they are terminally ill. It should be uncomfortable, but that doesn't make it untrue.

Dee said...

oops, typo: *what were you before..."

Tom Vouray said...

@Dee:
1) I was an American Protestant (no need to ID the denomination, they are pretty much the same thing.)
2)"I'm just curious about the same action done by intelligent people (reading the whole Bible) bringing about opposite results." I am curious why a perfect book inspired by a perfect god can be interpreted so wildly by so many.
3) "Oops". No problem. No one is perfect. Just look at all the mistakes that god confesses he made, as documented in the bible.
4) No offense taken with the bent comment. I would like to think that I have improved, as opposed to a simple alteration of direction. And I am sure you think you have improved since becoming a Christian. And we are both right.
:)

mada124 said...

@James Bond Your responses are like a broken record, repeating how evil and archaic the bible is. Im just making a point about why the bible says lust is a sin. Dont live in an illusion. Humanity is corrupt. Sex slaves are real, those mean are just filling their "natural urges" right according to you. It is our nature to sin, we are born in it. I think humanity needs help, and i have 0 faith in man. Just read the news.

james bond said...

Mada

if my responses are like a broken record, you should try reading yours! Your constant banging on about things in your old book that was cobbled together by idiots who knew nothing. You cannot possibly oppose slavery when you so adamantly defend your bible, which is the primary slavery manual, a slavery instruction book. You want to know what slavery rules to follow, read your bible. You're the slavery defender. I doubt if you will find any atheists promoting slavery the way your bible does it. Have you even read that thing? And if I sound like a broken record for repeating such arguments it's because you and other christians have so far not been able to justify or defend or explain those passages in any way that has any shred of reason or credibility. So your "broken record" response merely indicates the failure of christians to actually defeat the criticisms.

And your comment about humanity being corrupt is irrelevant. There are many things that are rotten in denmark, there always have been and probably always will be. There will always be sex offenders, but we do the best we can with laws and protective measures to prevent them and punish offenders. Yes, those rapists etc are just following their natural urges and not stopping to perpetrate violence along the way. Other people who do not commit violence have the same sexual urges, that is, they want their sexual needs to be satisfied via sex, but have learned to control them to appropriate situations, and to refrain from any violence in the satisfaction of them. The fact that some commit violence does not indicate a corrupt humanity, just corrupt or, I would prefer to say, egocentric, unempathic, and psychologically maladjusted individuals. May I remind you that as many religious people as atheists are rotten to the core, commit violence and offend sexually as non-religious people. Stats show that the more religious a society is, the higher the rates of violent crime. Sweden, the most secular nation of all, has the lowest rates of rape. Your god actually ordered rape, remember. Read the bible. To conclude that we are all corrupt, and all "born in sin" is a stupid, ancient idea perpetrated by the church as a way of insuring all believers felt guilty. It was a means of control, a way to get people to do certain things to find redemption for the sin they supposedly inherited. This infantile notion is so obviously a ploy, you would have to be stupid to fall for it. What a repulsive idea.

I have much more faith in people than you do. We can be good, lots of us, especially those of us with good opinions of humanity, those who do not fall for the infantile born in sin shit, those who actually see our greatness in many things and achieve heights that religions suppressed for so long. Let's hope in the future humanity will free itself of this scourge forever.

mada124 said...

@James Bond The God I serve doesnt order rape, and will punish unrepentant (meaning to turn away and not return) rapists. You dont know what your reading in the bible. You cant get the answer if you dont read the whole equation. I dont support slavery, neither does the bible. I wont stoop to calling your ideals stupid and irrelevant, but I wish you luck in you pursuit to find goodness in mens hearts. The only goodness there is comes from God. Remember that the good is God. They are synonymous. And all will eventually see the the Lord is infact real. What sorrow awaits thise who's lamps are not lit. I pray everyday that I am counted among those washed by His blood. I consider God my father. So i take personal offense when you misrepresent Him with your ignorant understanding of the Bible. I will not explain anything to you because I have tried and you turned your head. I give you verse after verse and you simply wave it away accusing me of spewing nonsense. You are quite close minded for an atheist. This is why I grow weary of responding to you. I attempt to be respectful and listen to your views, and you essentially call me a dumb Christian who supports slavery. Im african american. I dont support slavery. Is there something wrong with my faith in God? Why are you so infuriated by it? Seriously. Answer those questions.


mada124 said...

@James Bond
I apologize for the text wall. I just dont get your hostility. You dont even think God is real, yet the thought of Him having believers incites very real emotion in you. Why is that?

Dee said...

For someone who believes in the goodness of humanity, James sure seems to have a lot of anger and bitterness inside him. I'm sure he will now blame it on religion and a non-existing God, but maybe it's not actually everybody else's fault. In any case, it's not a healthy way to live - hoping you find help, brother

Tom Vouray said...

@mada124:

Good morning! You said "I dont support slavery, neither does the bible". Not to jump between you and James, but can you provide biblical references that clearly state that slavery is bad and/or a sin?

Tom Vouray said...

@Mada

Oh my! I just read your post "You are quite close minded for an atheist."
I am interpreting that as a minor compliment for atheists; not an endorsement, but I'll take what I can get.

I will return the favor by noting that Mada and Dee have more resolve in debating non-believers than most believers that post up here.

james bond said...

Mada:

If you have a god who does not support rape you must have invented a new one because the god of the christian bible certainly does. Along with every other despicable act a human being can do to other human beings. If you deny this you obviously have not read your bible.

And to say that all the goodness that is in us comes from some god requires evidence of some sort, or it's just an assertion. I can say it comes from an invisible turtle with every bit as much authority. Making outlandish claims about what happens to us after death is just as unsupportable and silly. You must as a rational person realise that anyone can say anything else about what happens after death but no one has any idea and the most likely thing is nothing. We just die like all other living things and decompose into the earth. I can understand it sort of makes you happy and sentimental to speak in metaphors or figurative language: "What sorrow awaits those who's lamps are not lit." But it's romantic nonsense that has absolutely no appeal to me. You think that in quoting "verse after verse" has some sort of mystique about it but it has none for me. I would much rather read Shakespeare, which I have studied in a lot of depth. I love literature, I love poetry but it's fiction. It's beautiful and it reveals a lot about humanity but nothing about supernatural stuff that you claim to be real. You don't seem to be able to distinguish between the two.

james bond said...

Mada:

You call me closed minded and yet you follow an old book written by savage desert dwellers. "I attempt to be respectful and listen to your views, and you essentially call me a dumb Christian who supports slavery." I don't think I ever said you were dumb, or at least not in the form of an accusation. If I did I am sorry. I may have asked something like "can you really be that stupid" for believing in the bible. And that's because it is such a stupid book. It is a stupid stupid book, and if that hurts your feelings I am sorry for hurting your feelings but the book was written by very stupid men with no knowledge of science, or the world or how it began. So to follow it is to shut your brain down. So much has been learned since then that to go on believing in it means... well I guess it means you've been very successfully brain washed. And it does support slavery, you cannot deny that. I am sorry if this touches upon a sensitive subject for you as an African American, but I think as a person so close to the evils of slavery in America's history you are being disrespectful to your heritage by not condemning what the bible says about slavery. Please read the passages, there are many. They set out very clearly the ways men are supposed to treat their slaves, I can find them all for you if you want. But you must know of them. There is no getting around them or denying them and what they say. It's despicable.
You ask me " Is there something wrong with my faith in God? Why are you so infuriated by it? Seriously." Yes, there is a lot wrong with faith in a god such as the one of the bible. I wish I had hours and hours to explain how much is wrong with it. But belief on something for which there is no shred of evidence is itself wrong. Why would anyone want to do that? I am not saying there is anything wrong with you but there is a lot wrong with faith. Faith is what leads radicalised men and women to terrorism. It's what inspires people to discriminate against minorities like the LGBT community and non believers. It's what allows charismatic charlatans like the Benny Hinns of the world to get fabulously rich at the expense of the gullible, taking their money on false promises. It leads to people like Ken Ham teaching children lies about evolution. Faith is a bad and dangerous thing. Yes, I get vehement, because I've experienced the evils of religion and religious belief.

Anyway, you are probably a good person I realise that, so no need to feel put upon or personally attacked. These are only words and it is belief and religion I am attacking, not you. We are arguing. It's healthy.

james bond said...

Dee

No I don't think I'm actually bitter. I am impassioned against theism and religious nonsense, yes. Impassioned is a better way to describe me. If you knew me I don't think you'd say I was bitter. I have been affected by religion in my own life, yes, but don't actually bear a grudge, I am glad to have had my eyes opened by the revealed stupidity of the christian bible and its followers. And I don't need help. Good luck to you.

Tom Vouray said...

@Dee

Are modern Jews in the country of Israel the descendants of god's 'chosen people' who were lead to the 'chosen land', as described in the old testament? If not, what happened to them?

mada124 said...

@ Tom Vouray

Tom

All people who follow God are his people. The Jews rejected Christ, thus the reject God. God did not leave them, they left God.

James
Here how I take the verses written about slavery in the Bible.

Slavery during the time these regulations where written was a form of punishment for unpaid debts and crime. There were laws in place so that you could not treat your slaves like animals. After 7 years, all slaves where freed. This is closer to indentured servitude than slavery. The slavery America committed was solely based on the premise that Africans were inferior. They were property, and they served until death.

I will say this, the Old Testament and its levitical laws are archaic and, as a Christian, I dont think all of them apply to our lives. The laws I am concerned with are the 10 commandments. There are thousands of Levitical and Mosaic laws that people don't follow. They are not in danger of anything. When they were written, the Jews were coming out of Egypt, and had lived very differently than from how God wanted them to live, so they where given these laws.


I really want to prove that the Bible teaches love, above all things. It teaches us to enjoy our lives and each other. It does have recordings of violence, and stories of rape and murder. Do you wonder why things like that would be in a book about God? Why would the authors have anything that could be used against God in it?

I think these stories are not omitted because we need to know the God we serve.

Genesis

5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth -- men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air -- for I am grieved that I have made them.

Those nations were against His people, so they where wiped out. Not pretty, ill say that. But look what He does for his people, despite their constant rebellion against Him.

" Before the attack on Amalek is initiated by Israel, the innocent are told to 'move away' from them: Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, "Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt." So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites. (I Sam 15.5f). This action would have also served to give the people of Amalek plenty of notice (i.e., time to 'move away' themselves), and the impending attack by Saul--especially with the troop counts reported!--would hardly have been a surprise. Some of them would likely have fled--we KNOW all of them were not killed, since they 'lived to fight/raid again' in David's time (I Sam 27,30) and even in Hezekiah's time (200-300 years later!, 1 Chr 4.43)"

The whole Bible must be read in concert, inorder to understand it. I have read the Bible, but dont read one verse hear and one verse there, I think this is where your misunderstanding arises.

Give me some specific points in the Bible that lead you to believe my God is evil, I will then attempt to refute it. Show me some verses, and Ill show you some.

Then I want to show you some prophecy that may give the bible some relevance. Some hard evidence.

james bond said...

Mada

No do not try the old "indentured servitude" argument that tries to make slavery look like a mutually beneficial agreement, labour in return for keep. It was nothing like that. There is so much wrong with what you said I will tackle one point at a time. Firstly, slavery is the ownership of people. They are property. You do what you like with your own property. Even if you are not supposed to do A, B or C, in ancient times there were no regulatory bodies to oversee treatment, no complaints boards or ombudsmen or sets of laws to ensure the safety and well being of the slave. You did what you liked. Maybe behind closed doors, so who you gonna call, huh? Slaves were bought and sold, and what regulatory body was present to investigate where the slaves came from, or if they were actually people being "punished" for wrongdoing as you say. Slaves were whoever found themselves enslaved. This rosy picture you have that "all slaves were freed after seven years" is wrong, that is not what the bible says. "Hebrew slaves" were to serve for six years and go free in the seventh. I quote: "The Bible identifies different categories of slaves including female Hebrew slaves, male Hebrew slaves, non-Hebrew and hereditary slaves. These were subject to different regulations. Female Hebrews could be sold by their fathers and enslaved for life (Exodus 21:7-11), O there is so much more, Mada. I will continue just so that you know what the bible says, and that it is very far from the romantic notion of indentured servitude that you are imagining. It is very important that you get this right and honour the memory of all slaves who were denied their humanity and treated as property.

james bond said...

Mada
Continuing information on biblical slaves: "Male Hebrews could sell themselves into slavery for a six-year period to eliminate their debts, after which they might go free. However, if the male slave had been given a wife and had children with her, they would remain his master's property. They could only stay with their family by becoming permanent slaves (Exodus 21:2-5)." Please note that "permanent" meant until death. Never free. Always property of a master.
But there's more: "Non-Hebrews, on the other hand, could (according to Leviticus 25:44) be subjected to slavery in exactly the way that it is usually understood. The slaves could be bought, sold and inherited when their owner died. This, by any standard, is race- or ethnicity-based, and Leviticus 25:44-46 explicitly allows slaves to be bought from foreign nations or foreigners living in Israel. It does say that simply kidnapping Hebrews to enslave them is a crime punishable by death (Deuteronomy 24:7), but no such prohibition exists regarding foreigners. War captives could be made slaves, assuming they had refused to make peace (this applied to women and children—men were simply killed), along with the seizure of all their property (Deuteronomy 20:10-15).
Hereditary slaves were born into slavery and there is no apparent way by which they could obtain their freedom."

Please note that last sentence: No way out, Mada. No way to be free. Ever. Simply because you were born to slave parents. Is your rosy romantic notion of biblical slavery beginning to fade yet, Mada. I hope so, because there is more to come.

mada124 said...

@ James Bond

Fine, you have proven your point. The Bible does have guidelines on how to treat slaves, but this is not condoning it. Can you show me a verse specifically saying slavery is a good thing. I think this is more similar to things like the Geneva Convention. Of course it writers are not condoning war, but they have war crimes laid out and regulations to minimize suffering. What happens behind closed doors cannot be blamed on the Bible it has not physical power to cause slave owner to mistreat their slaves. If you a cruel slave owner, and you beat your slaves and mistreat them, you would theoretically be judged for it in the end.

The Bible has verses about loving your fellow man, what are you thought on those verses?


Mark 12:31

The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."


This trumps everything else written in the Old Testament, it is the greatest commandment. To love first.

If your actions do not show love, then they are not supported by the Bible.

It always troubled me that there are verses about slavery, very specific commands and regulations, but (I think) the rules were to protect slaves. There nothing that can be done about the act happening. No these rules are irrelevant, because slavery is outlawed, and the bible also says this.

Mark 12:17

Then Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him.

This essentially means to follow the laws of the land.

I'm glad we can argue civilly now, I apologize for my clerical attitude earlier and accusations about your character. Your right, it is healthy. You causing me to think. What good are my beliefs if I cannot defend and support them.

james bond said...

Mada

look I will not just go on quoting from wikepedia, you can look it up for yourself. So much more on slavery, selling your daughter into slavery. I urge you to look up these passages: they are at http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Bible. You can verify them by looking them up in your own bible.

But one of the worst of the slave passages I think is this one: "Exodus 21:20-21 (NASB): 20. If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property." Now please think about that passage Mada. What gets me about this one is that it's obviously okay to beat your slave with a rod. Note, there may be no reason for the beating or it may be for any supposed offence at all. But the beating can be so cruel that the slave dies after 3 days. No punishment. First, there is no saying what the punishment for killing a slave by beating is. A fine, perhaps? The slave owner is only punished if the slave dies within 2 days. Think of this. THink of a person beaten so brutally they linger for weeks or even months with terrible injuries, maybe blindness, broken limbs, etc. But they don't die, just suffer terribly. It's okay with god. All good. Read all the passages Mada and please tell me then how you justify your views that slavery in the bible was a good thing. Please explain it to me.

james bond said...

Mada

Oh and I agree with your comments: "I'm glad we can argue civilly now, I apologize for my clerical attitude earlier and accusations about your character. Your right, it is healthy. You causing me to think. What good are my beliefs if I cannot defend and support them." Thank you for that. I think we are arguing civilly.

But I get very impassioned about the slavery arguments because it is so important for people to know just how bad the bible is on this point. The bible in no way "outlaws slavery" as you say. On the contrary, it enshrines it in law as a just and good thing. It has to be condemned in the strongest possible terms for this. And if you say the bible was merely reflecting the law of the land, well I'm afraid that is not good enough. The bible is supposed to be the enlightened word of a good and just god. The slavery passages are just one very clear indication that the bible was written by men, not a god, that it reflected the morals of a savage and unenlightened time when men thought it was okay to own and to beat people. It is not. So I urge you, Mada, in honour of the African slaves that America abused for all those years, to come out and condemn the bible's approval of slavery. As you will see if you go to the source quoted, there are other passages on slavery, I have not exhausted them.

Thank you for thinking about this.

james bond said...

Mada:

just one more thing, in response to your comment:
The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

I agree with Freud that this is an impossible and silly thing to expect of people. What if my neighbour is a monster? A child-molester, an abusive husband? I do not love that person at all. The most that can be expected of neighbourliness is to respect your neighbour as a person unless there is reason to think otherwise and to respect his or her rights. If you know your neighbour well and love that person, that is good, but there is no reason to love that person as much as yourself. Self-love is a necessary survival emotion and has to be stronger than the love of a mere neighbour. I am sure you do not love cruel and abusive people and would not love a cruel and abusive neighbour at all.

The best rule of the bible is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Not sure where that is in the bible. But that rule pre-dates the bible, so the bible merely borrowed it. No originality there, sorry.

Tom Vouray said...

@Mada, Dee and James:

OK, I think we can safely say that Mada did not provide any versus from the bible that says that slavery is bad.

Here are two verses, one from god in the old testament, and one from jesus in the new testament to think about:

God
Deuteronomy 20:10-14: “As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.”

Jesus
Luke 12:47: “And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.”

I can't help but wonder how many ancestors of Mada, James, Dee and myself were 'beaten with many stripes' as slaves in the past while their owners quoted this verse from the bible.

james bond said...

Tom

I am always amazed at how much obviously atrocious stuff gets brushed aside as though it did not exist. I recall at school that even though we read or knew about some of the evil passages, we still thought that the bible was good, as if some sort of odd instant amnesia stopped us from remembering the brutally cruel stuff almost as soon as we'd read it. I still can't understand why I did not stand up to the religious instructors at school and ask how a good and kind god could suddenly kill everyone on the planet. Fear? Or some weird brain-washing technique they used. Maybe the poetic verses lulled us into some sort of mental numbness. There is so much awful, even obscene stuff in this book that is held up to be so beautiful. I mean how about this: 2 Kings 18:27King James Version (KJV) 27 which talks about men eating faeces and drinking piss? And this: that he slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not one that pisseth against a wall, neither of his kinsfolks, nor of his friends” (1 Kings 16:11, KJV).
Certainly no beauty there. These are passages no preacher ever talks about in the pulpit or the sunday school classes. Mada will most probably not want to bring these bits up because they are not the pretty, romantic, feel good stuff he likes.

james bond said...

Tom

And it's no good if they try to argue that this evil stuff is from the old Testament and "we are under a new covenant now" because, for a start, jesus says in the NT that all of god's law shall be fulfilled in its entirety: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” (Matthew 5:17-18). So there was to be no repeal of any of the old stuff: nothing goes, it all stays. And you can't dismiss the Old Testament, or you lose the creation, you lose the Ten Commandments, you lose the very fundamental underpinnings of christianity, you actually lose god.

Tom Vouray said...

@mada124
You asked:

“The Bible has verses about loving your fellow man, what are you thought on those verses?”

They are great! They are fantastic! They are a good start! But they fall woefully short of providing complete moral guidance. And I don’t think there is a single verse in there about being nice to other folks that is unique to the bible, and that is not repeated in various forms in other societies around the world, past and present. (Feel free to prove me wrong, as long as you provide references other than your own opinions.) I will let James The Literate carry the ball on that rebuttal, as I believe he is more qualified to address the issue than I am.

Not to hurt your feelings, but sometimes it appears that when myself or others point out things in the bible that are diametrically opposed to the concept of a loving god or jesus that you fall back on bringing up quotes about all the good stuff in the bible. In my mind, that is like defending someone on trial for murder by saying “Sure he killed someone, but look at all the good he has done and how much he loves everyone. Can’t we just ignore the bad stuff that he did?” A gross simplification, but not far off the mark.

Thoughts?

Tom Vouray said...

@mada124:

Here are some more quotes and postings from you over the last week or two:

“He is in fact all knowing, and omnipotent.”
“The whole bible is the word of God, and Jesus is the Word.”
“Most of the Bible is written by inspired men. For believers, the Bible is the Word of God, all of it.”
“Seek God out, and ask him your questions……………… the God of Dorian Xavier Louis Randall, is faithful to answer.”
“Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others.”
“You look for what you want to see in the Bible, and you do it without an open mind, so you will find nothing. Of course it makes no sense to you.”
“He is an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent entity that exists outside the universe, or bulk universe, whatever theory you believe about the universe. That is why I do not question His actions. How could I understand?”

I will just say that if I wanted to reach the most people in the world with my message, I would do the opposite, and
1) make my message as clear and simple as possible to avoid confusion,
2) and without contradictions,
3) and without requiring interpretations,
4) and would not require someone to claim to be ‘spiritual” or have unique understanding or knowledge to understand and explain to others. (this inherently limits the number of people who understand, instead of increasing the number of people that understand).

That, I believe, would be the way to get the maximum number of people to hear and hopefully follow my message (whatever it might be).

I cannot speak for James, but I think we both have indeed read and studied the bible, and if god existed, and if he was indeed “omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent”, then my opinion is that his bible falls far, far short of perfection. Otherwise, it would not be so easy (impossible, actually) for James and myself to come up with the multitude of biblical verses that we have found and presented that show parts of the bible that many Christians feel are contrary to the message they want to present, and don’t want to acknowledge. As I have stated before, if one wants to take the claim of perfection out of the equation, then that is where most of my objections fall to the ground.

(And before you say that we are not spiritual or we have not looked at the bible as a whole, please refer to Item 4 above. Thanks.)

Once again, please do not take this as an attack or criticism, but I did want to verbalize my response to your question "why do you not believe as I do?"

/Rant
One more parting thought: "Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others" Really? That (in my opinion) borders on the arrogant, and provides a convenient way for folks to claim superiority and 'don't question me' attitude. And yes, that is a bible verse, and not your words, so I will cut you some slack on this one. I will just say that versus like this do not endear Christians to non believers.
/End rant


And who in the world is Dorian Xavier Louis Randall? Enlighten me.

Tom Vouray said...

@mada and James

You know, if we all got paid a penny a letter typed on this blog we'd all be rich now!

leo1jm2 said...

The problem that everyone seems to be having is the understanding of Who God is and who man is in relationship to Him. Since God is the creator whether ypu believe in Him or not , as creator it is His prerogative to do with it what He wills. Man is the sinner here and God told man that if he , man, sinned he would surely die. now God told Noah to build an arc, and he gave man the opportunity to repent of his sin, and He gave man 120 years, the amount of time it took Noah and his sons to build the arc. Man did not repent nd God terminated them all. So you poor people think that that is terrible and you probably also think that God should allow you into heaven, even if you deny His existence. Think again! and prepare yourselves for what is soon to come upon this world. I'm not worried because I won't be here!!!

Tom Vouray said...

@leo1jm2:

Actually, if you read the bible (that is OK if you haven't, most Christians don't), god only told adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:17: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

But then later, after eating the from the tree we find
Genesis 5:5: "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."

Bummer! The very first promise god makes in the bible, and he drops the ball. I guess that you just can't count on some folks to follow through on their promises/threats.

In any case, thanks for stopping by. Let us know if you have any other things we need to know about you.

mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray

"But then later, after eating the from the tree we find
Genesis 5:5: "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.""

"And he died"

I'll leave that as is. God said he would die, and he did. He didn't say you will die immediately, did he?


For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” (Matthew 5:17-18)


Till all be fufilled. Guess what Jesus came to do?

Mathew 5:17
""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them"



Again, you are taking verse out of context. You referenced Luke


"Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”

42The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

47“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."


This is a parable relating this scenario to the second coming of Christ.

When you were quoting me you said I stated the following

"The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments,"

This does not mean we can judge other humans, but we can judge their actions and tell whether or not they are of God. This is not the same as Judgment from God.

Matthew 7:1-3
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? "

I am Dorian Randall. mada124 is a username I use for online stuff. Does it matter?

If you read the Bible, it must be the whole thing, and it must be applied to the other verses in it. That is how you read the Bible. Id I only took the part of German history where they were controlled by a Nazi regime, you would think very poorly of them. Not that it is at all similar to the bible, any acts of violence by God are righteous and for a purpose.

Romans 9:19-21

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?







mada124 said...

@James Bond

"On the contrary, it enshrines it in law as a just and good thing"

Show me a verse calling slavery a "just and good thing"

Again, these laws are there as regulations because slavery is a thing. You may not like that reason, but it is the reason.


"Exodus 21:20-21 (NASB): 20. If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property."

"Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven."

Colossians 4:1


Is beating your slave within an inch of their life "just or fair" according the laws stating that you should treat others with respect?

"And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him."

Ephesians 6:9


Now, in case you think the Bible considers slaves sub-human


"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Galations 3:28


Lets not forget, slavery is a man made invention. God therefore made regualtions for it, so that slaves would not be mistreated. It does not condone or oppose slavery, so long as it adheres to these very strict laws.

Now, this is all irrelevant today, because slavery is not longer socially accepted. I will agree with you, slavery is archaic and inhumane. But i will not agree the the bible condones it. I don't see that, lets just agree to disagree here, as I wont convince you and you wont convince me.

You see this as condoning beating a slave to death, and I see the opposite.

If the slave dies at all, he shall be punished. If a slaver owner beats a man so badly that it take him 2 week to die, that man will be punished, because he is not treating that slave with dignity.


mada124 said...

I want to change the topic to prophecy. This is the most compelling reason for my belief in the bible. There are many misconceptions and false teachings about bible prophecy. It is somewhat vague at times (Matthew 24), but others are very specific. I want to address the following, and give evidence showing it possible. Possible being the key word, im not saying this is what will happen, but it is strikingly similar to text that was written thousands of years ago.

Ezekiel 38:1-13 NLT

This is another message that came to me from the Lord : “Son of man, turn and face Gog of the land of Magog, the prince who rules over the nations of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him. Give him this message from the Sovereign Lord : Gog, I am your enemy! I will turn you around and put hooks in your jaws to lead you out with your whole army—your horses and charioteers in full armor and a great horde armed with shields and swords. Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya will join you, too, with all their weapons. Gomer and all its armies will also join you, along with the armies of Beth-togarmah from the distant north, and many others. “Get ready; be prepared! Keep all the armies around you mobilized, and take command of them. A long time from now you will be called into action. In the distant future you will swoop down on the land of Israel, which will be enjoying peace after recovering from war and after its people have returned from many lands to the mountains of Israel. You and all your allies—a vast and awesome army—will roll down on them like a storm and cover the land like a cloud. “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: At that time evil thoughts will come to your mind, and you will devise a wicked scheme. You will say, ‘Israel is an unprotected land filled with unwalled villages! I will march against her and destroy these people who live in such confidence! I will go to those formerly desolate cities that are now filled with people who have returned from exile in many nations. I will capture vast amounts of plunder, for the people are rich with livestock and other possessions now. They think the whole world revolves around them!’ But Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish will ask, ‘Do you really think the armies you have gathered can rob them of silver and gold? Do you think you can drive away their livestock and seize their goods and carry off plunder?’

http://bible.com/116/ezk.38.1-13.NLT

This essentially predicts that a massive army led by Magog and Persia mainly, Russia and Iran , in the distant future will come against Israel to gain something, Oil perhaps? The Golan Heights recently had a large oil reservoir discovered, and is hotly disputed territory. Feel free to look up the names of those nations listed. I did my own research and found them to be the modern countries I stated.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/iranian-commander-we-can-destroy-israel-in-under-8-minutes/

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/countingthecost/2016/08/turkey-russia-billion-dollar-handshake-160813090616706.html

http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsweek.com%2Fnetanyahu-tells-putin-golan-heights-will-remain-under-israeli-control-451309&h=nAQEeWttn&s=1

http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsweek.com%2Fnetanyahu-tells-putin-golan-heights-will-remain-under-israeli-control-451309&h=nAQEeWttn&s=1



Another little detail in there metions Sehba and Dedan, which is modern Saudi Arabia

They will stand back and vocally oppose this attack, but thats about it.

Interestingly, Saudi Israeli relations have been improving.


http://www.breitbart.com/jerusalem/2016/08/14/saudi-arabias-pro-jewish-media-campaign-seeks-to-pave-way-for-ties-with-israel/

http://www.timesofisrael.com/saudi-media-battles-anti-semitism-warms-up-to-israel/

This is important because, if this is in fact true, the second coming is also prophesied to take place surrounding this time. Hence my urgency.

Dee said...

Tom's question to me was:
"Are modern Jews in the country of Israel the descendants of god's 'chosen people' who were lead to the 'chosen land', as described in the old testament? If not, what happened to them?"

I would say yes, the modern Jews are the descendants of God's "chosen people". God chose this people group as a platform to make His name known to the people of the day and to set the stage for His own son to come and redeem all of mankind. The people of Israel were by no means deserving of this "choosing" and rebelled countless times (and were themselves subject to plagues and punishments as a result). The chosen land was very strategically at a crossroads where many foreign peoples would pass through and be influenced by the people who were supposed to be following God's laws. Then, same as now, we are all left to our own free choice of whether we do that or not. Jesus was born into this chosen people group. He was the promised Messiah. The many Jews who recognized this and followed him eventually were not called Jews any more, but Christians, together with the non-Jews (Gentiles) that also followed Him. There is no more specific "chosen people" as in a people group. Rather, God has individual "chosen people" in every nation/people group of the world, including modern day "Messianic Jews", who continue to practice a lot of the Jewish traditions but at the same time recognize their ultimate fulfillment in the person of Jesus Christ. God loves the whole world, and this is not just a New Testament idea. For example: “In that day Israel will be the third with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth, whom the Lord of hosts has blessed, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel my inheritance."”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭19:24-25‬ ‭ESV‬‬ (note: Egypt was Israel's oppressor when they were in slavery and Assyria was the nation who took Northern Israel back into captivity at the end of the Old Testament story). I previously mentioned as well how the Israelite camp had room for foreigners and will also note: there were many laws that were set up to protect them such as not going over your crops a second time to leave food behind for the "gleaners" which included widows and aliens/foreigners. If you read the Old Testament prophecies you will notice a theme about a "remnant", which is a continuing idea that only a portion of God's "chosen people" will endure as such. Being Jewish/Israelite never guaranteed safety or blessing and it still does not. God judges us each individually by what's in our hearts, and ultimately, what our response is to Jesus' offer of salvation.

There was a lot of comments today and I am too tired to contribute much else before I go to sleep, but this kind of irks me: "These are passages no preacher ever talks about in the pulpit or the sunday school classes". This is false. You cannot claim this without having listened to every church sermon and Sunday School teaching, which is impossible. Even if you had the time, many are not even recorded. I know that in my own church, the pastor encourages people to read lots of Scripture for themselves and submit their questions to him. He addresses some of the topics from the pulpit, and if more of a discussion is needed (maybe similar to what we are doing here), most times a Sunday School class setting is provided accordingly. I know there are many other churches who also address these passages and questions in various ways as well. Please don't pretend you know exactly how all of our churches run because you don't.

Good night

james bond said...

MADA

Quoting Ephesians also brings us to "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ." And fear. Note the "and fear." Just as you would fear and obey christ. What sort of love is that? What loving parents truly want their children to fear them? What an archaic and quite horrible idea. But the blind obedience thing is also offensive. The implication of this is "no matter what the master tells you to do." It's an open book to abuse.

And Mada I don't think you've mentioned the passages about selling your own daughters into slavery. What possible way is there to interpret that in a good way? ANd don't give me the old "indentured servitude" rubbish. Slavery then was owning people as property and the bible says you can see your daughter to someone to become their property, as you might sell a horse. There is just no getting around that.

You say "
Lets not forget, slavery is a man made invention. God therefore made regulations for it, [pretty shitty regulations though, you can still kill the slave as long as he doesn't die immediately, and still sell your daughter into slavery] so that slaves would not be mistreated. It does not condone or oppose slavery, so long as it adheres to these very strict laws." [so strict that, as I said, you can still beat the shit out of your slave, long as it takes him or her more than a couple of days to die. Or beat the shit out of them so much that they're maimed and scarred or permanently impaired for life: long as they're still breathing. Oh what a lovely god your god is.]

And yet the bible is supposed to be a god-made thing, not man made. So why would god not realise how inhumane slavery is and condemn it and make one of the commandments "Thou shalt never own a person as property: slavery is forbidden and sinful". Not rocket science, I'd have made that one of my commandments, and got rid of the egocentric bullshit commandment about graven images.

james bond said...

Dee

You criticised my observation that "These are passages no preacher ever talks about in the pulpit or the sunday school classes". This is false. You cannot claim this without having listened to every church sermon and Sunday School teaching, which is impossible. Even if you had the time, many are not even recorded. .... Please don't pretend you know exactly how all of our churches run because you don't."

Of course Dee the passages have to be confronted at some point, and I'm sure you understood the point I was making, that the sermons you hear the evangelists, bv preachers and holy rollers praising the lord for in their ecstatic and pedagogic ways are usually NOT the obscene and distasteful ones. They play them down to such and extent that by and large the passages are ignored and forgotten about. The selling your daughters into slavery, I would venture to bet, is almost never brought up at sunday sermons, it's way too embarrassing. Same with the pissing and shitting references. And the cutting off of the foreskins. Can you imagine that on the church signpost: Sunday Sermon: Oh no, they want to stick to golden and sunny images of grazing sheep and green pastures. Tell me how many times you hear these preached in church? Once? Ever? How often do you see the church advertising it's sermon for next week as Exodus 4:25: "TOSSING FORESKINS AT THE FEET: FUN FOR ALL THE FAMILY" [Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin and threw it at Moses' feet, and she said, "You are indeed a bridegroom of blood to me."] Now be honest, these bits of the bible are embarrassing, and skipped over. Don't even get me started on the complete nonsense about the sins wearing different fabrics and eating and not eating animals with cloven hoofs.

james bond said...

Mada

I also have to say the prophecies you allude to could be applied to any conflicts at almost any time. Countries go to war, that's what happens. The fight over land, and other resources. They have always done so. Take any major conflict and you can make it fit the "prophecies" you find in the bible. I too can be a prophet by making vague statements that will surely come true. Give me a prophecy that accurately states dates, names of countries and people that do not yet exist at the time of the prophecy, exactly who is going to do what and when, and the outcome of the actions. Then your claims to prophecy may have some validity. There is no such thing as a prophet who can foresee an actual future. There are simply people who make claims based on experience that things they know are likely to happen at some time, somewhere, will happen and hey presto, such things happen. Sorry, that does not win a prize.

mada124 said...

@James Bond

@James Bond

For a God you don't believe in, he seems to incite very real emotion in you. You simply misunderstand. Please re read my post. Beating the "shit" out of your slave is not loving them as yourself, unless your a masochist. Again, let's agree to disagree. I think your wrong about your interpretation, and since I have prayed to God about it, He has given me more insight that you could have about it. Ive given you my reasons, what more do you want? Id rather hear your opinion on the prophecy of Ezekiel 38, and the devopling news stories. Here another one, just today.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/17/world/middleeast/russia-iran-base-syria.html?_r=0

mada124 said...

@James Bond

If you would read the posts, you would see the Ezekiel 38 is very specific and does give names of countries. And time, distant future.

mada124 said...

@James Bond

The outcome is that this forces army is swept away by God himself, and he will make himself know to man, and those who do not know him will tremble in fear at what is coming to the earth. Rightly so, because it is the Wrath of God, and who can escape? Fear means to respect, something you do not do for God, despite him warning you RIGHT NOW. You reject hsi love, and see what you want, with your vast humam knowledge of the universe. Do you have the solution to human suffering? Or the keys of death? That prophecy has not happened, but it it building. The required nations are at play. Dont gloss past that as if it is nothing. These events are very real. Iran and Russia and Turkey and very real countries that have very real ambitions to take out israel, which is prophesied. Comments on those articles and thier relation to Ezekiel 38's specific commentary on the events?

james bond said...

Mada

No, "he" incites nothing at all in me because "he" (I prefer to think of your god as "it") does not exist. What does incite me is the ways people lie about the man made notion of a god by insisting it is some sort of truth or true thing when there is no evidence at all to base the claim upon.

And yes, I know that "Beating the "shit" out of your slave is not loving them as yourself" so why does the bible not mind at all if you do beat the shit out of the slave (long as he survives a couple of days before he pegs out)? Why did the slavery passages not say "Slavery is wrong, there is never any excuse for it and it has to stop now"? Why say "Oh, long as the beaten ones take their time dying, I have no problem with that? Which is really what it amounts to. Or why not say "Never beat anyone" And why not say "Never beat anyone, no matter how gentle or severe the beating, just fucking don't do it. You got that? " And if it is supposed to be the same god talking when the bible says love your neighbour as yourself, (obviously that excludes slave neighbours) why doesn't it specify "OH wait, I already said you were allowed to beat the shit out your slaves, so my bad, cancel that, now I'm saying you can't do that." You will probably try to say that the love your neighbour does cancel out the other, but how would we know? Anyone can just as easily say, no the neighbour rule does not apply to slaves. Or that loving people means you can also beat them if they live for at least a couple of days.

I'm not quite happy with the "let's agree to disagree" suggestion, Mada. I want you to reconcile these contradictions, and when you just retreat from the argument, it's somewhat disappointing. It's almost like you've given up because it's too obvious my point has a lot of merit. Which is good, but it would be better to hear you concede some ground here, given you have not managed to explain the inconsistencies.

And Mada, it is no argument at all to say "since I have prayed to God about it, He has given me more insight that you could have about it." Come on Mada, that's no argument. I could say "I spoke to god and she told me I was absolutely right, the bible is rubbish and I didn't write it. I'm not that god." A Muslim could say he communicated with Allah or Mohammed and they told him the passages in the bible are just bullcrap. I'm sure you would not believe them. Maybe you do think you are talking to your god. I think you're talking to yourself. You can't prove to me that you spoke to god, so you can't defeat my arguments with that claim, I'm sorry.

james bond said...

Mada:

I think I covered the prophecy argument. It does not take a genius to know that wars about resources, land, political and religious dogmas, races, and all manner of power struggles are going to occur in the future. The biblical passage predict what, conflict in countries already in conflict? Conflict between nations in the future? Well jeez Louise, I could have predicted that. You are not reading forwards, you are reading current events back into the writing and trying to make them fit. It's the same tired old process used by those who claim Nostradamus predicted events that actually occurred. It's rubbish. It's what self-professed "psychic" do, telling you things very likely to happen based upon what they know about you and your life and what often happens to people.

And you ignore the obviously failed prophecies: Isaiah 7:14: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. How could they get the name so wrong?

Isaiah 19:4-5 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts. And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up.

Did not happen.

Isaiah 19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.

The Canaanite language has never been spoken in Egypt, and is now an extinct.

You can look all these up yourself Mada. There are heaps more.

So all you are left with is the vagueries of wars between countries. Pretty small potatoes I must say. Sorry, the prophecy arguments fail.

Tom Vouray said...

@Dee

Thanks for your response on my question concerning god's chosen people and modern day Israel.

I will just express an opinion that it would be sad to think, if what happened in the old testament were true, that all the death and bloodshed that occurred for the 'chosen people' to establish their place in the 'chosen land' resulted in a modern country that does not follow jesus or christianity. That is what the younger folks would refer to as an "epic fail".

Tom Vouray said...

@Mada:
Regarding adam and god’s threat if he ate of the tree of knowledge, you said:
“I'll leave that as is. God said he would die, and he did. He didn't say you will die immediately, did he?”
Not immediately, but pretty close, within 24 hours. I will repeat from the bible:
“……….in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Adam did not die in the day that he did eatest, but lived another 900+ years. That was the whole point of the posting.

I think some of your posting on Tuesday at 8:38PM was addressed to James and not me, not sure what you are referencing?

“I am Dorian Randall. mada124 is a username I use for online stuff. Does it matter?”
The reason I asked was that I assumed that you were referencing a historical or religious person (I have to admit it is a pretty cool name) and I actually googled it and came up with nothing. I never thought it would be your real name.

Tom Vouray said...

Here are my favorite verses in the bible about prophecy and end times:
[I am too lazy to cut and paste, look them up yourselves.]

Matthew 26:64 & Mark 14:62
Matthew 23:36 & 24:34
Matthew 16:28
Mark 13:30-31
Luke 9:27
Luke 21:25-33
Matthew 10:23
Hebrews 10:37
1 Peter 1:20 & 4:7

All of which either state or imply that either the return of jesus and/or end times were to occur over 1900 years ago.

But don’t feel bad. The Jehovah’s Witnesses predicted that jesus would return in 1874, and when he missed the memo and was a no show, they revised his second coming to 1914. When no one noticed him standing around, they then they figured out that he did indeed return, but he was invisible. I guess he also came back as a mute, since no one heard him either.

Boy, this whole prophecy and timing of the return of jesus sure can get tricky.

Tom Vouray said...

@leo1jm2:

Hey, when you get to the afterlife, do us a favor and post back up here and let us know how things turned out for you.

mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray

More evidence you have not read the Bible, as none of those verse imply any sort of specific timing.

Matthew 24:36
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

The Jehovah's Witnesses predicted wrongly. The Bible is not wrong, they are. I don't not even agree with their doctrines or eschatology, I think they mislead people.

And your argument is over semantics, God said Adam would die and he did. Thats it.



mada124 said...

@James Bond

Really? 4,000 years ago Russia didn't even exist. Nor did Iran. I doubt you could have guessed with such specificity, these events. Its not just "some countries fighting over resources". It specifically Iran, Russian, Turkey, vs Israel. Which is unfolding in front of your eyes. Are you in denial? You said I could apply this to any conflict, and that isn't not true. The countries are named. You argument is not sufficient, you just simply brush way stated evidence. But I assume my attempts to show you any evidence are futile, you have made your decision already. Saying "well anyone could have guess that" isn't enough. Because not anyone did, the Bible did. And guess whats happening?

james bond said...

Mada

So did I miss the reference to Russia in Ezekiel 38? Hmm, just in case, let me do a word search....no, no reference to Russia. Let's seem maybe a reference to a Soviet Communist nation that is seduced by communist/socialist manifesto written by a couple of guys named Marx and Engels, that finally becomes democratic...sort of....ummm no, oddly, Ezekial mentions nothing like that..just a big nation. And of course the names of some extant nations of the middle east with lots of mythic stuff chucked in: but hey, maybe Ezekiel mentions modern firearms and bombs and planes and weapons: now that would be really prophetic: oh, wait, it only mentions men floundering about on the ground with shields and horses and doing lots of looting and plundering: Gog and Magog, which "in the Hebrew Bible may be individuals, peoples, or lands" according to my source. No one really knows. And you think this is some sort of prophecy? Oh give me a break, Mada. Please. Stay real with me, or the discussion is pointless.

mada124 said...

@James Bond

http://www.wnd.com/files/2012/06/richardson120622_1.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meshech#/media/File:Noahsworld_map.jpg

Obviously it wasn't mentioned as "Russia". The area where modern Russia is was Magog. And Persia and Libya are also named. Persia is undoubtedly Iran. You dont know the vision he had either. Swords and shields were used to represent war because he would have no idea what tanks were. And you argument is refuted by the mention of the phrase "distant future".

james bond said...

Mada

Well if it's prophecy, why DOESN'T it mention Russia? Prophecy means foretelling the future, so foretell it already. And Mada, perhaps you can tell me where you're getting your information from: My reading informs me no one actually knows what Gog or Magog was. Wikipedia has a lot on the subject, starting with this: "The first mention of the two names occurs in the Book of Ezekiel, where Gog is an individual and Magog is his land; in Genesis 10 Magog is a person[a] but no Gog is mentioned; and in Revelation Gog and Magog together are the hostile nations of the world.[1][2] Gog or Goug the Reubenite[b] occurs in 1 Chronicles 5:4, but he appears to have no connection with the Gog of Ezekiel or Magog of Genesis.[4]"

But there is heaps more. You really should read it, before you think it's established that Magog is today's Russia. Or publish your own research on the matter and have it peer-reviewed.

And again, if this is actual prophecy, how come it did NOT mention tanks, aeroplanes, and bombs? Prophets are supposed to know about things that have not yet come into existence. Why ONLY mention the weapons of the time? You really have to stretch and stretch and stretch to get your mythical storybook content to fit actual events of today.

And why is it that ONLY christians who believe in the biblical prophecy actually notice or pay any attention to this? The world is filled with historians. I have not yet heard of one non-religious scholarly writer or historian who chronicles the supposed accuracy of biblical prophecy.

Tom Vouray said...

@mada

You have said, many times, something along the lines of: "If you read the Bible, it must be the whole thing, and it must be applied to the other verses in it. That is how you read the Bible" to myself and James.

I postulate that this is only your opinion, but it is not supported by the bible and therefore it is unbiblical.

mada124 said...

@Tom Vouray

Thesalonians 5

19Do not quench the Spirit. 20Do not treat prophecies with contempt 21but test them all; hold on to what is good, 22reject every kind of evil

2 Peter 1

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Tom Vouray said...

@mada

Once again, I am not sure that if your latest response was directed to me or James, as I was asking about the necessity of reading the bible as a whole, and your response referenced prophecy?

james bond said...

Mada:

love the fly screens comments.

On the prophecies, though: Quoting the bible as an authority on the bible's own prophecies is like trusting that a person is telling the truth simply because he says he is. If you're testing prophecy will I suggest that over the centuries lots of people have examined the accuracy of the alleged prophecies and found them either quite wrong or so vague that you could not call them actual prophecies. In other words, they fail the test that reality imposes upon them.

And really, the romantic/poetic stuff you quote such as " a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts." is really only that. As for "no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things." I am sorry, but this is just using scripture to verify itself. And the claim in the bible that "For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." is just unproven assertion. I'm not personally credulous enough to believe unproven assertions about things that are on the face of it rather unlikely to be true.

Tom Vouray said...

@James:

off topic. for your research for your thesis, did you read the novel "johnny got his gun", or were your resources just non-fiction? A very effective anti-war book, written almost 100 years ago.

james bond said...

Tom

No Tom, I did not read that one, by Dalton Trumbo. i referred to many classic WWI novels, including Le Feu by Henri Barbusse, The Return of the Soldier, All Quiet on the Western Front, and A Farewell to Arms and some classic war books based on other wars, like The Red Badge of Courage, and Catch 22 . I've just read a synopsis of Johnny Got His Gun on Wikipedia and I really don't think I am strong enough for that one. Thanks for the suggestion, but maybe I need a break from war for a while at least.

Tom Vouray said...

@ James

Oh I am not suggesting that you read it, in fact I concur that you should not. Just wondering if you had read it as part of your research. I had to read it a very long time ago, (in galaxy far, far away) and still have no desire to look at it again.

Tosha Tyran said...

Thanks for the great work you did. I just came across it now.
There is however one thing I want to add: You refer to the God of the OT as the grand killer - which undoubtedly would be true, if God ever existed.

Now, I think God is a creation of mankind and thus we could just shrug him off, if there were not still so much killing going on in his name. And so much hatred being sown in the name of this murderous religion.

Another thing I want to point out is about the killing of his son J.C. Imagine a father who has the possibility to save his only son from death by torture, his son knowing his father has this power, pleading him, begging him to save him. And the father? To magnify his own fame lets his son be tortured until he dies... Who wants or needs a father like that?

And - any father acting this way would nowadays end up in carcel or the spend the rest of his life in a psychiatry.

But Christians not only worship and glorify this monstrous God/Father, they show their "love" regularly by a gory and cannibalistic rite:

"Take this, all of you, and eat of it:
for this is my body which will be given up for you.
Take this, all of you, and drink from it:
for this is the chalice of my blood,
the blood of the new and eternal covenant.
which will be poured out for you and for many
for the forgiveness of sins .
Do this in memory of me."

I shudder each time I think of it!

Tom Vouray said...

The number one thing that believers overlook is the wide gap between what they are taught to believe regarding Christianity (as well as other religions) and what is actually written in the bible (and other 'holy' books).

Non-believers (including myself) are posting verbatim from the bible, and yet believers (who claim the bible is generated by god and perfect) have to twist and turn and squirm to come up with excuses regarding these discrepancies.

Ignacius Antiochus said...

Hi Tosha. If one does just a couple of minutes of research on HUMAN SACRIFICE, that person will see what a horrific loss of life that was/is. There are many [non-religious] sites such as Wikipedia, for example, you can visit.

Typically images of Aztecs and Mayas come to mind first and then one quickly sees that this type of senseless and sadistic murder had been practiced by virtually every ethnicity, culture and most religions in the past. From slayings of infants and virgins…to…you name it. It occurred every single day. If human sacrifice has claimed millions of lives, the number of senseless animal sacrifices has to be exponentially greater.

The notion of human sacrifice has its roots in deep prehistory and anthropological scientists tell us that it was an integral part in the evolution of human behavior to appease God or the gods….or “someone/something that created creation”. Skipping over eons of civilizations’ development (each with its construct of a religion), we arrive to the time of Jesus during which Jews and other peoples slaughtered vast numbers of animals as sacrifices and offerings for religious purposes, and barbarians continued sacrificing humans. God is infinitely merciful by sending Jesus Christ to be the last and ultimate sacrifice, the “unblemished lamb”. You can research what that means.

I can already hear the adrenaline coursing through your veins to write about how religion has caused loss of life in wars. While there’s no denying that campaigns such as the Crusades and the Thirty Years’ War foundationally rested on religious ideology, it is simply incorrect to assert that religion has been the primary cause of war. See Philip and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars, which chronicles ~1,760 wars waged over the course of human history. The authors categorize 123 as being religious in nature (6.9% of total). If you subtract those waged in the name of Islam (66), the percentage drops to 3.2%. So this means that all faiths combined – minus Islam – have caused <4% of all wars and violent conflicts. Not to mention, religion has not played a motivating role in major wars that have resulted in the most loss of life. Non-religious motivations and naturalistic philosophies bear the blame for nearly all of humankind’s wars. Lives lost during religious conflict pales in comparison to the loss during the regimes who wanted NOTHING to do with the idea of God.

Top non-religious dictators and lives lost:
Joseph Stalin = 42,672,000
Mao Zedong = 37,828,000
Adolf Hitler = 20,946,000
Chiang Kai-shek = 10,214,000
Vladimir Lenin = 4,017,000
Hideki Tojo = 3,990,000
Pol Pot = 2,397,000

Thanks for letting me post. I have to sign off now as family, work, friends, sports, Church…LIFE…calls.

I recommend any apologetics book by Peter Kreeft or reaching out to my religious and irrational friends Roy H. Schoeman and Francis S. Collins.
Love ya!...no, really.


---------------
“We of faith accept the fact that God is the infinite unknowable power behind it all. There are fascinating scientific theories that try to work around cause and effect, first cause, and creation theory. They involve aspects which do not constrain God such as time-space, infinity, relativity, string theory, quantum mechanics, parallel universes, antimatter, the Second Law of Thermodynamics, and a whole lot more. These theories always wind up in paradox because they can never get past the intelligence of our design or any kind of first cause” – saw it written in a bathroom stall at Caltech or M.I.T., can’t remember.

Tom Vouray said...

@Ignacius:

The following claimed to be a perfect, loving, unknowable being that demanded worship:

Joseph Stalin = no
Mao Zedong = no
Adolf Hitler = no
Chiang Kai-shek = no
Vladimir Lenin = no
Hideki Tojo = no
Pol Pot = no
god/jesus = yes

As usual, you deflect from the conflict in the belief of supposedly perfect, all loving being that loves all mankind, while supposedly killing them. I would guess if you used this same logic in a murder trial ("hey, he only killed one guy; look at all the people these other folks killed.") that you would not win the case.

Fortunately, god does not exist, so it is a moot point.

james bond said...

Tom Vouray: excellent rejoinder.

Men do evil, capricious and homicidal things. They destroy others. Not necessarily in the name of a god. War has many causes and a whole range of rationales, most of them challengeable and often spurious.
God, however, (of course I refer to the fictional being that people claim is real) holds the record for homicide. No dictator or brutal leader has as successfully demolished all of life on earth but for 6 or 7 individuals. And his excuse for doing so is the worst ever given: he was angry with the men he created (to be imperfect) for not being perfect.

Thank goodness we do not need to believe in all that shit.

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Daniel Kwiatkowski said...

So I'm a Christian Monotheist, and I am curious how those who don't believe in God justify their belief in objective morals. Certainly God's seemingly horrendous behavior is a problem for Christians, but isn't outrage against evil a bigger problem for nonbelievers since there is no reason why there is anything bad about murder if there is no God? I realize there have been attempts to salvage morality without God, but all I've seen end up committing David Hume's "Is-Ought" fallacy.

james bond said...

Daniel Kwiatkowski I don't think atheists do necessarily believe in objective morals. Maybe some do. But there are two points to be made. At least. One is that there are ways to measure whether something is or is not in the best interests of society. It is not rocket science to know that murder, rape, all forms of violence generally, do not promote peaceful co-existence and actively impede the productive and happy functioning of society and community, which includes family. We arrive at a fairly common consensus about what we want and the ways we want to live. We deem it immoral to do things which prevent, or hinder our aims for ourselves and our society. Obviously over time our sense of those things may alter, as it did with homosexuality, once considered indisputably wrong. We learn and adjust our thinking. This does not happen overnight, it happens slowly through trial and error and with the addition of new information and new discovery. Laws, morals, ideas, all evolve. Your question "why is there anything bad about murder if there is no god" is incredibly naive. Try to imagine a culture deciding it was perfectly alright. What would happen? Societies before your god was thought of realised murder was not going to be in the best interests of all and made it an illegal and wrong act. The second point is that no one has ever discovered where this hypothesised "objective morality" actually exists. Where is it, in the bible, right alongside those passages that approve of murder, rape, infanticide, slavery, torture, and so on? And if you think there is some objective morality somewhere in between all those allowed atrocities, how come it has never prevented believers in god from committing every possible barbaric and homicidwhen they committed those breaches of your supposed objective morality, they must have known what they were doing. My point is that asserting that there IS an objective morality that god conceived of but somehow failed to instil in anyone, it is of no real value, so we may as well just make up our own minds about what is right and wrong according to the societally desirable or undesirable consequences or our actions. Which is precisely what we have always done and continue to do and for the most part it works reasonably well. The societies in which it works best are those that are the most secular, like Scandinavian countries. A legal system, and a code of behaviour that is constantly scrutinized, modified, adapted to changing circumstances, which evolves with our own evolving understanding and with new knowledge makes for an optimally functional society. Much more so than a rigid, unchangeable and unknowable but nevertheless asserted morality orignating in an ancient time.

james bond said...

Oops, but of a syntax problem in the middle of that comment of mine. SHOULD READ: "And if you think there is some objective morality somewhere in between all those allowed atrocities, how come it has never prevented believers in god from committing every possible barbaric and homicidal act? When they committed those breaches of your supposed objective morality, they must have known what they were doing."

Kevin Baker said...

Great post. This may have been intentional because it hasn't happened yet, but I didn't see a number given for Revelation? If Jesus flies out of the clouds tomorrow on a white horse with fire in his eyes and a sword coming out of his mouth, I believe we are to expect at least 2/3rds of the people on earth to be killed according to the mescalin induced dream some ancient lunatic had in a cave 2,000 years ago that has managed to scare the world to death ever since. 2/3 * 7 billion adds another 4.7 billion to God/Jesus's death count, which is significant to say the least.

Another question I have is how many of the ~25 million killed by God were 100% innocent? How many were elderly? Children? Women? Of those 25 million, I literally might put the number of just sentences at 1%, though I truthfully don't think it's that high. Regardless, God is responsible for outlawing then mandating or perpetrating all of the worst crimes we think of today including sexual slavery, indiscriminate genocide, rape, the killing of children in countless instances, killing homosexuals and people of different religions, the punishment of children for the crimes of their parents, slavery, genital mutilation, and the murder of people for imaginary crimes like witchcraft, wizardry, star gazing, etc...

Thankfully, the three Abrahamic monotheistic religions that dominate our world today are so patently false and silly to anyone examining them with an objective mind, uncluttered by fear of hell for asking questions. Once you do the research, I would put forth that there is no conceivable way for an honest, thinking human to still believe in this ridiculous book of horrific myths from a time we are all just glad we didn't have to live in.

Tom Vouray said...

As stated before, fundamentally some people are drawn to Christianity and other religions because they are told by church leaders that their religion offers 'perfection' and 'absolute truth'. The reality is that many folks are overwhelmed by modern life, and its choices, and the 'gray areas' of morality and ethics, and so it is easier to let someone else tell them what to do and think.

It is always easier to believe than to think.

But the (extremely large, IMHO) gap between what religious leaders tell their followers and what is written in the bible is part of the rise of atheism around the world. It is now incredibly easy and free to search the bible to 'fact check' what you are told in your church, something not easily done even 20 years ago.

And for all of its flaws, the American (and most modern countries) legal system that codifies our morals and punishment system is vastly superior to that provided in the bible.

Homi Nid said...

Moser seems like quite an intelligent bloke to me, and the examination of the nature of a god he doesn't believe in, and is clearly not the same "god" ... that anyone supports who does believe in him/her/it. So his opinion as offered.. appears to me to be a joke. The discussion has the same ring of dumbcluck about it, as Dawkins statement concerning god's total indifference to suffering.. Assuming Dawkins accepts the notion within his statement that the godgod that he doesn't believe in ..is nevertheless the supposedly creator of all...so there is Dawkins showing compassion? All kinds of tender concern for a troubled, and tortured world. That's to say, there's at least one sentient caring creature, Dawkins, who with others , can rustle up vast resources to work towards less suffering, etc.
Anyway it is halfwitted to imagine that a few old blokes living in such unliterate times, can know about god enough to tell all. What kind of a seedy impotent god would it be, that could live between the covers of ancient tomes, written by glum old men, no women had any ideas at all, apparently...

Sam Jesse said...

1) 1/2 a truth is a lie, You quoted Deu 32:29 removing part of the text which the Lord says "I make alive, I heal". i.e. God is free to do any thing He wants with what ever He created "He has legal title to it". Not only this is fair but legal. A creature has no legal rights to complain about it or fair to question it. Having said that and that alone without going any further should humble you since your turn could be next.
2) God in his mercy is allowing you to eat His food, drink His water, breath His air, socialise with His creatures and you being un thankful shows much about the kind of person that you are. I wonder how you would treat some one like your self in you were in God's shoe.
3) I will not write anything about the love of God for God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble and unless you humble yourself "agree with what God said about you - sinner and on that way to hell and needing Jesus's salvation", you will have to pay for your own sins. For it is given to man once to die and after this the judgement.

Tom Vouray said...

@Sam Jesse:

1) "God is free to do any thing He wants with what ever He created. He has legal title to it. Not only this is fair but legal." You use the same argument as abortionist to justify abortion; do you believe in abortion? Regardless, you are using a position that side steps the real issue. You are avoiding addressing the issue of morality by saying that just because you created something/someone that you can do whatever you want to do with it/them. I think if you google "sociopath" you will find some disturbing parallels with your non-existent god.

2) "I wonder how you would treat some one like your self in you were in God's shoe." Me personally? If someone did not like/love/worship me, I would shrug my shoulders and say "Oh well". I most certainly would not create a perpetual punishment for them just because someone did not like me. I have an ego, but evidently it is not as big as the ego your non-existent god has.

james bond said...

Yes, Tom. Also, it seems somewhat oxymoronic to suggest an omnipotent being needs to be concerned about what the law might say.

AND yes, I've always thought that someone so monstrously egocentric as god is truly in need of some serious psychotherapy. Might have saved a whole lot of bother.

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ssamayoa said...

Incredible how many christian zealots justified those murders (if ever happened) mostly because simply "is god" and you cannot question him and/or understand his "mysterious ways".

What really bothers me is the original sin:

1. Was Adam & Eve who (supposed) died 6000 (ignoring scientific facts) years ago - why every body else must "pay" for that? (Note that some folks already pointed this)

2. The most bothering thing:
The sin was GETTING KNOWLEDGE!
God, as most politicians and religious "leaders" wants you DUMB!
They want you to do not question anything and accept your fate!

Religion should make people more spiritual and better person (look at the buddists) Not DUMB!

Tom Vouray said...

@ssamayoa:

Yes, once you step back from what one is told from an early age and think about things, then religion quickly falls apart. Unfortunately, it is easier to believe than think, and most folks are too lazy to follow through.

Genesis is an excellent book of the bible to question. In addition to why we should be punished for the sins of others, you have god's first promise that Adam will die (that day) if he eats the fruit, and then he lives 900+ years. And yes, apparently Adam and Eve were frolicking around Eden a la natural, and were only ashamed *after* gaining knowledge that they should be ashamed.

Therefore, according to the bible, sins are not sins if you don't know it. I propose that we immediately stop teaching our children about sins, and within generation, no one will know what sin is, and we can return to Eden. Simple solution!

james bond said...

Yes indeed, Tom Vouray. As I recently discovered, the Finns have a word for sitting around in your underwear getting drunk: the word is kalsarikännit. And most of them are Lutherans. But obviously they don't concern themselves much with notions of sin. Must make a note: move to Finland.

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james bond said...

dutchlionfrans1953:

You say that Jesus Christ says in John 3:36: "Whosoever believes in the Son of God has eternal life; whosoever does not obey the Son of God shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Okay, so does that mean anyone who loves his family receives the wrath of god? If the jesus of the bible existed, and I don't believe he did, but if he did he was a shit: "“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."

The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Luke 12:51-53

Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out ... And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Matthew 5:28-30

God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. Matthew 15:4

Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death. Mark 7:10

Tom Vouray said...

I wonder how many male Christians follow this advice from jesus:

"For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.” (Matthew 19:11-12)

james bond said...

Yes, Tom, if there was only one self-castrating eunuch it would be one too many but there were, I am told, quite a few monks who castrated themselves because of this shitty bit of the bible. Of course, if we looked at all the fucking awful things done by people because of religion, we would fill a library.

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