17 May 2013

How many has God killed? Complete list and estimated total (Including Apocryphal killings)

Drunk With Blood Audiobook: Introduction
I kill ... I wound ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and mine sword shall devour flesh. -- Deuteronomy 32:39-42
The table shows two numbers: the number given by the Bible, if any, and an estimate, when no biblical number is available.

Total number killed by God in the Bible
- Using biblical numbers only: 2,821,364
 - With estimates: 25 million

(The table has been updated to include God's killings in the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical books. I'll be adding the missing Apocryphal stories in the next few days.)

Killing Event Reference Bible's Number Estimate
1 The Flood of Noah Gen 7:23 20,000,000
2 Abraham's war to rescue Lot Gen 14:17-19 1,000
3 Sodom and Gomorrah Gen 19:24 2,000
4 Lot's wife Gen 19:26 1 1
5 While they were sore, Dinah's brethren slew all the males Gen 34:1-31, Judith 9:2-3 2 1,000
6 Er for being wicked in the sight of the Lord Gen 38:7 1 1
7 Onan for spilling his seed Gen 38:10 1 1
8 A seven year worldwide famine Gen 41:25-54 70,000
9 There will be blood: The first plague of Egypt Ex 7:15-27 , Wis 11:7-8 10,000
10 The seventh plague: hail Ex 9:25 300,000
11 Firstborn Egyptian children Ex 12:29-30 500,000
12 The Lord took off their chariot wheels Ex 14:8-26 600 5,000
13 Amalekites Ex 17:13 1,000
14 Who is on the Lord's side?: Forcing friends and family to kill each other Ex 32:27-28 3,000 3,000
15 Aaron's golden calf Ex 32:35 1,000
16 God burns Aaron's sons to death for offering "strange fire" Lev 10:1-3 2 2
17 A blasphemer is stoned to death Lev 24:10-23 1 1
18 When the people complained, God burned them to death Num 11:1 100
19 While the flesh was still between their teeth, the Lord smote them will a very great plague Num 11:33 10,000
20 Ten scouts are killed for their honest report Num 14:35-45 10 110
21 A man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day is stoned to death Num 15:32-35 1 1
22 Korah, his companions, and their families are buried alive Num 16:27 3 9
23 God burns 250 people to death for burning incense Num 16:35 250 250
24 God kills 14,700 for complaining about God's killings Num 16:49 14,700 14,700
25 The massacre of the Aradies Num 21:1-2 3,000
26 God sent serpents to bite people for complaining about the lack of food and water Num 21:6 100
27 Phineas's double murder: A killing to end God's killing Num 25:1-11 24,002 24,002
28 The Midianite massacre: Have ye saved all the women alive? Num 31:1-35 6 200,000
29 God slowly killed the Israelite army Dt 2:14-16 500,000
30 God the giant killer Dt 2:21-22 5,000
31 God hardens King Sihon's heart so all his people can be killed Dt 2:33-34 1 5,000
32 Og and all the men women, and children in 60 cities Dt 3:6 1 60,000
33 The Jericho massacre Jos 6:21 1,000
34 Achan and his family Jos 7:10-26 1 5
35 The Ai massacre Jos 8:1-25 12,000 12,000
36 God stops the sun so Joshua can get his killing done in the daylight Jos 10:10-11 5,000
37 Five kings killed and hung on trees Jos 10:26 5 10,000
38 Joshua utterly destroyed all that breathed as the Lord commanded Jos 10:28-42 7 7,000
39 The genocide of twenty cities: There was not any left to breathe Jos 11:8-12 2 20,000
40 The Anakim: some more giant killing Jos 11:20-21 5,000
41 The Lord delivered the Canaanites and Perizzites Jg 1:4 10,000 10,000
42 The Jerusalem massacre Jg 1:8 1,000
43 Five massacres, a wedding, and God-proof iron chariots Jg 1:9-25 5,000
44 The Lord delivered Chushanrishathaim Jg 3:7-10 1 1,000
45 Ehud delivers a message from God Jg 3:15-22 1 1
46 God delivers 10,000 lusty Moabites Jg 3:28-29 10,000 10,000
47 Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an ox goad Jg 3:31 600 600
48 Barak and God massacre the Canaanites Jg 4:15-16 1,000
49 Jael pounds a tent stake through a sleeping man's skull Jg 4:18-22 1 1
50 Gideon's story: The Lord set every man's sword against his fellow Jg 7:22 120,000 120,000
51 A city is massacred and 1000 burn to death because of God's evil spirit Jg 9:23-27 1,001 2,000
52 The Ammonite massacre Jg 11:32-33 20,000
53 Jephthah's daughter Jg 11:39 1 1
54 42,000 die for failing the "shibboleth" test Jg 12:4-7 42,000 42,000
55 Samson murdered 30 men for their clothes Jg 14:19 30 30
56 Samson killed 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass Jg 15:14-15 1,000 1,000
57 Samson killed 3000 in a suicide terrorist attack Jg 16:27-30 3,000 3,000
58 A holy civil war (it had something to do with rotting concubine body part messages) Jg 20:35-37 65,100 65,100
59 The end of Judges: two genocides and 200 stolen virgins Jg 21:10-14 4,000
60 God killed Eli's sons and 34,000 Israelite soldiers 1 Sam 2:25, 4:11 34,002 34,002
61 God smote them with hemorrhoids in their secret parts 1 Sam 5:1-12 3,000
62 50,070 killed for looking into the ark of the Lord 1 Sam 6:19 50,070 50,070
63 The Lord thundered a great thunder upon the Philistines 1 Sam 7:10-11 1,000
64 Another Ammonite massacre (and another God-inspired body part message) 1 Sam 11:6-13 1,000
65 Jonathan's first slaughter 1 Sam 14:12-14 20 20
66 God forces the Philistines to kill each other 1 Sam 14:20 1,000
67 The Amalekite genocide 1 Sam  15:2-3 10,000
68 Samuel hacks Agag to death before the Lord 1 Sam 15:32-33 1 1
69 In the valley of Elah: Goliath 1 Sam 17:51, 2 Sam 21:19 1 1
70 David buys a wife with 200 Philistine foreskins 1 Sam  18:27 200 200
71 The Lord said to David, Go and smite the Philistines 1 Sam 23:2-5 10,000
72 God killed Nabal (and David got his wife and other stuff) 1 Sam 25:38 1 1
73 David commits random acts of genocide for the Philistines 1 Sam 27:8-11 60,000
74 David spends the day killing Amalekites 1 Sam 30:17 1,000
75 God kills Saul, his sons, and his soldiers (because Saul didn't kill all the Amalekites) 1 Sam 31:2, 2 Chr 10:6 4 100
76 David kills the messenger 2 Sam 1:15 1 1
77 David killed, mutilated, and hung Rechab and Baanah 2 Sam 4:12 2 2
78 God helps David smite the Philistines from the front and the rear 2 Sam 5:19-25 2,000
79 God killed Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling 2 Sam 6:6-7, 1 Chr 13:9-10 1 1
80 David killed two-thirds of the Moabite POWs and enslaved the rest 2 Sam 8:2 667
81 And the Lord gave David victory wherever he went 2 Sam 8 - 10 65,850 66,850
82 David killed every male in Edom 2 Sam 8:13-14, 1 Kg 11:15-16, 1 Chr 18:12, Ps 60:1 15,000 25,000
83 Thus did David do to all the children of Ammon 2 Sam 11:1, 1 Chr 20:1 1,000
84 God slowly kills a baby 2 Sam 12:14-18 1 1
85 Seven sons of Saul are hung up before the Lord 2 Sam 21:1-9 7 3,000
86 David's mighty men and their amazing killings 2 Sam 23, 1 Chr 11 1,403 3,400
87 God killed 70,000 because of David had a census that God (or Satan) told him to do 2 Sam 24:15, 1 Chr 21:14 70,000 200,000
88 Solomon murdered Job and Shimei (per David's deathbed wish) 1 Kg 2:29-46 2 2
89 A tale of two prophets 1 Kg 13:11-24 1 1
90 Jeroboam's son: God kills another child 1 Kg 14:17 1 1
91 Jeroboam's family 1 Kg 15:29 10
92 Baasha's family and friends 1 Kg 16:11-12 20
93 Zimri burns to death 1 Kg 16:18-19 1 1
94 The drought of Elijah 1 Kg 17:1, Luke 4:25, James 5:17-18 3,000
95 Elijah kills 450 religious leaders in a prayer contest 1 Kg 18:22-40 450 450
96 The first God-assisted slaughter of the Syrians 1 Kg 20:20-21 10,000
97 God killed 100,000 Syrians for calling him a god of the hills 1 Kg 20:28-29 100,000 100,000
98 God killed 27,000 Syrians by making a wall fall on them 1 Kg 20:30 27,000 27,000
99 God sent a lion to kill a man for not smiting a prophet 1 Kg 20:35-36 1 1
100 God killed Ahab for not killing a captured king 1 Kg 20:42, 22:35 1 1
101 God burned 102 men to death for asking Elijah to come down from his hill 2 Kg 1:10-12 102 102
102 God killed Ahaziah for asking the wrong God 2 Kg 1:16-17, 2 Chr 22:7-9 1 1
103 God sent bears to kill 42 boys for making fun of a prophet's bald head 2 Kg 2:23-24 42 42
104 The Lord delivered the Moabites 2 Kg 3:18-25 5,000
105 A skeptic is trampled to death 2 Kg 7:2-20 1 1
106 God's seven year famine 2 Kg 8:1 7,000
107 Jehoram of Israel 2 Kg 9:24 1 1
108 Jezebel 2 Kg 9:33-37 1 1
109 Ahab's sons: 70 heads in two baskets 2 Kg 10:6-10 70 70
110 Ahab's hometown family, friends, and priests 2 Kg 10:11 20
111 Jehu killed Ahaziah's family 2 Kg 10:12-13, 2 Chr 22:7-9 42 42
112 Jehu and his partner kill the rest of Ahab's family 2 Kg 10:17 20
113 Jehu assembled the followers of Baal and then slaughtered them all 2 Kg 10:18-25 1,000
114 Mattan the priest of Baal and Queen Athaliah 2 Kg 11:17-20 2 2
115 God sent lions to eat those who didn't fear him enough 2 Kg 17:25-26 10
116 An angel killed 185,000 sleeping soldiers 2 Kg 19:34, 37:36 185,000 185,000
117 God caused King Sennacherib to be killed by his sons 2 Kg 19:37, Tobit 1:21 1 1
118 Josiah killed all the priests of the high places 2 Kg 23:20 100
119 Just another holy war 1 Chr 5:18-22 50,000
120 God killed a half million Israelite soldiers 2 Chr 13:17-18 500,000 500,000
121 Jeroboam 2 Chr 13:20 1 1
122 God killed a million Ethiopians 2 Chr 14:9-14 1,000,000 1,000,000
123 Friendly fire: God forced "a great multitude" to kill each other 2 Chr 20:22-25 30,000
124 God made Jehoram's bowels fall out 2 Chr 21:14-19 1 1
125 God killed Jehoram's sons 2 Chr 22:1 3
126 Ahaziah of Judah 2 Chr 22:7-8 1 1
127 Joash, the princes, and army of Judah 2 Chr 24:20-25 1 10,000
128 God destroyed Amaziah 2 Chr 25:15-27 1 1,000
129 God smote Ahaz with the king of Syria 2 Chr 28:1-5 1 10,000
130 God killed 120,000 valiant men for forsaking him 2 Chr 28:6 120,000 120,000
131 The fall of Jerusalem 2 Chr 36:16-17 10,000
132 The Purim killings: God hath done these things Esther 2 - 9, 10:4 75,813 75,813
133 God and Satan kill Job's children and slaves Job 1:18-19 10 60
134 Hananiah Jer 28:15-16 1 1
135 Ezekiel's wife Ezek 24:15-18 1 1
136 Oh! Susanna Dan 13:6-62 2 2
137 Judith is blessed above all women (for cutting off a sleeping man's head) Judith 13:6-10 1 1
138 The Judith massacre: hang ye up this head upon our walls Judith 15:1-6 1,000
139 Mathathias's double murder 1 Mac 2:24-25 2 2
140 Mathathias and his friends slay the wicked sinners 1 Mac 2:44 100
141 God killed Andronicus, the sacrilegious wretch 2 Mac 4:38 1 1
142 A Jewish mob killed Lysimachus, the sacrilegious fellow 2 Mac 4:42 1 1
143 God helped Judas Machabeus destroy the wicked 1 Mac 3:1-26, 2 Mac 8:5-6 800 4,900
144 Judas and his unarmed men kill 3000 of Gorgias's soldiers 1 Mac 3:44-4:24 3,000 3,000
145 The Hanukkah killings 1 Mac 4:34-5:7 5,000 17,000
146 The Machabees brothers slaughter the heathens 1 Mac 5:21-51 11,000 37,000
147 Nicanor's army: The Almighty being their helper, they slew above nine thousand men 1 Mac 7:32-47, 2 Mac 8:24, 15:27 147,002 147,002
148 Jonathan and Simon destroy the wicked out of Israel 1 Mac  9:46-49, 2 Mac  8:30-33, 10:61 1,000 1,200
149 Five heavenly horsemen cast darts and fireballs at the enemy 2 Mac 8:32-10:38 21,103 21,400
150 God killed Antiochus with an incurable bowel disease 2 Mac 9:5-28 1 1
151 Idumeans, traitors, and Jews in two towers 2 Mac 10:16-17 40,000 40,100
152 Nicanor's head: A manifest sign of the help of God 1 Mac 7:33-48, 2 Mac  15:1-35 35,000 35,000
153 Aliens at Cades 1 Mac 11:74 3,000 3,000
154 John burns to death 2000 in the tower of Azotus 1 Mac 16:10 2,000 2,000
155 God sent wasps to slowly destroy people Wisdom 12:8-9 1,000
156 Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:5-10 2 2
157 Herod Aggripa Acts 12:23 1 1
158 Jesus Rom 8:32, 1 Pet 1:1820 1 1
Totals 2,821,364 24,994,828

664 comments:

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tony Schaapman said...

James bond, I was an atheist for too many years. An honest atheist acknowledges once the absolutes are removed everything is subjective.
I am interested in your use of “despot” for Hitler. By which subjective standard can you make such a statement? Since absolute good and evil do not exist in your paradigm, if he felt he was doing right or good then on was basis objective can you judge him to be the contrary?

“It in no way reflects upon atheists or suggests that his career was driven by any sort of atheistic philosophy.” Again, I have to disagree. Once the absolute is removed, everything becomes fair game.

“his propensity was for absolute power” True enough. Actually if you bothered to look at the link in my first post that is what is documented under all the Atheist regimes where 200 million were killed. You got it. When absolute power is removed it creates a vacuum many seek to fill with themselves.
Here is the link again. https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/CHINA.CHAP1.HTM


“Your god was worse, of course, and responsible for much more genocide than Hitler.” First he is not my God, but the God of all creation, that means you too, though you refuse Him.
Next, if you look at the grand total of all the lives taken by God, you will note it pales to the 200 million Stat. Atheism/godlessness is the greatest killer.
Also, since God is the creator, He does have creator rights. Everyone knows that if you created something, you alone have the right to its destruction. Add to that His merciful warnings given for decades and even centuries. What a gracious God.
What Peter says is true.
2 Peter 3: 9. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

That is why I am still alive, and He did not destroy me as a rebel. God’s patience is often confused with His non-existence. Tragic error.
It is His great patience that facilitates even this conversation.
God is good.

Tom Vouray said...

@Tony:

1) "He does have creator rights. Everyone knows that if you created something, you alone have the right to its destruction."
This is the exact same logic as abortionists. Do you believe abortion is acceptable?

2) "Add to that His merciful warnings given for decades and even centuries. What a gracious God."
So your non-existent god supposedly kills 70,000 because David took a census that non-existent god compelled him to do. And his 'merciful warnings' were...............?

3) I will leave the historical discussion of Hitler to you and Tom. However, I will ask the fate of each Jew after they die, since they do not profess belief in the non-existent Jesus?

tony Schaapman said...

Ton vouray
1)This is the exact same logic as abortionists. Do you believe abortion is acceptable?
You are confused. Conception and create are not the same by any dictionary, regardless the language.

2) "Add to that His merciful warnings given for decades and even centuries. What a gracious God."
So your non-existent god supposedly kills 70,000 because David took a census that non-existent god compelled him to do. And his 'merciful warnings' were...............?
I love how you parrot things off this same site. Oh well, here we go with a basic Hebrew lesson.
To translate the verse literally, we would say, “There was who moved David against them” or “For one moved David against them.”
The translators have to determine what the “it” was. Was it his anger, or God?
-The unstated thing that moved David to conduct the census could have been David’s own evil imagination.

– The “one” who moved David could be Satan, as 1 Chronicles 21:1 says.

– The “adversary” (the meaning of the word Satan) mentioned in 1 Chronicles could be someone other than the devil; it could have been an unnamed counsellor to David who prompted him into a foolish (or sinful) action.
Sorry, I know you prefer the God one as it fits better into your narrative. That is often the real issue. Truth is not the quest, just proof texting, and confirmation bias.
Please be smarter than that, surprise me. Why not try some serious academics instead off this pathetic cherry picking you accuse others of?

3) I will leave the historical discussion of Hitler to you and Tom. However, I will ask the fate of each Jew after they die, since they do not profess belief in the non-existent Jesus?
Israel entered into a serious covenant with YWHW, the consequences of which they agreed to if they failed. Surely you know that. Surely you must be familiar with the blessings/cursing God promised, and the Israelites agreed To? Read the whole chapter.
Leviticus 26: 3. "'If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, 14. "'But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands,..

james bond said...

Tony Schaapman: Firstly Tony, please do not imply or suggest that I am dishonest by beginning with the phrase “an honest atheist acknowledges....”. I am offended by that subtle but definite aspersion on my character. I am an honest atheist. And if I did disagree with the point on subjectivism, I would not be being dishonest, just someone with a point of view that is different from your own.

As it happens, I am in agreement that everything is subjective. But that is actually a good thing. Subjectivism is the reason we are empathic to our fellow human beings: we feel their pain.... it’s a subjective thing to put yourself in someone else’s shoes, and a good thing.

I call Hitler a despot because he was a despot: that word is defined as “a ruler or other person who holds absolute power, typically one who exercises it in a cruel or oppressive way.” It would be difficult to mount a case to show Hitler was not a totalitarian and cruel ruler.

The question you ask about how to judge Hitler is very simple to answer. The goodness or badness of an act is pretty obvious in most cases: as social, empathic human beings any act that brings pain or suffering to people unnecessarily is generally agreed upon is undesirable and should be avoided. And vice versa. Not rocket science, I would have thought. Whereas this mythical “objective” standard of right and wrong has never been discovered. It is not in the bible, for all manner of atrocities there are approved of and perpetrated by your mythical god. His actions make Hitler look almost like a good guy. And no, everything does not become “fair game” in a subjective system. For, unless you live in some sort of totalitarian society, we have a myriad of checks and balances on the abuses of power and general abuse of other people. We enact laws to protect people, and other animals, and the planet, which we try as hard as we can to enforce. When those laws are breached, we try to punish the guilty. Our systems of democratic government are not perfect but when imperfections become clear we try our best to remedy them. Society is in a constant state of continuous self-reflection and improvement. We strive to do better and maintain a happy society. I will continue my comments in my next post.

james bond said...

Tony Schaapman: continuing my comment:

You seem to have overlooked my objections to your claim about “Atheist regimes where 200 million were killed.” Those regimes were not driven by any creed of atheism, for atheism has no creed or book of rules or any aims or claims to power. Atheism is simply the absence of a belief in gods. Totalitarian regimes are run by despots seeking the very type of power your god claimed for itself. “When absolute power is removed it creates a vacuum many seek to fill with themselves.” I don’t quite know what you mean here: when the absolute power of a brutal and merciless, tyrannical and jealous god who murders every creature in the world (except 8) is removed, it creates a vacuum that men seek for themselves? Is that it? Men must create government to rule men, and when that is done in a democratic and secular fashion, you are much more likely to get a good society. Stalins and Lenins are no longer able to flourish easily in developed first world countries, especially in this technological world that exposes injustices and horror immediately. Theocracies are often the worst, most tyrannical, barbaric and murderous regimes. Your god has never been any guarantee of good behaviour, as the number of pedophile priests shows us.



“First he is not my God, but the God of all creation, that means you too, though you refuse Him.” I am sorry, but just asserting something does not make it so, Tony. Give me evidence or the assertion is utterly worthless.

What you are missing when referring to “all the lives taken by God,” is that a benevolent and omnipotent ruler should have no need to take lives: ever. Listen to your own point: you are saying, ok, so god killed millions. Not at bad as human beings, so there!” But Tony, your god should be perfect. Should not need to behave like a human barbarian. EVER. And yet he does. It seems his preferred option, in fact. Go figure!

Saying “God is the creator” is another mere assertion and of no value. Your concept of “creator rights” really sounds like it cheapens your god further: what is he now, someone who saves his creator coupons to use at Walmart?

Oh dear, to say that “everyone knows that if you created something, you alone have the right to its destruction” is just abhorrent and I am sure you do not mean this. Do you have the right to kill your children, Tony? If so, I fear for their lives.

The “merciful warnings” is another silly idea. I’m sorry to sound insulting, but honestly, why would an omnipotent god not just use his omnipotence to talk quietly and in an intelligent way and use his omnipotent powers of persuasion to get his children to obey him? No, he has to be the brutal threatener and bully boy who destroys at will.

“God is good.” Another assertion. Based on all the disgusting acts of murder, genocide and torture in the bible, your god is anything but good. Is in fact the worse kind of bad. Fortunately I have no reason to believe in its existence.

Tom Vouray said...

@Tony

1) "Please be smarter than that, surprise me. Why not try some serious academics instead off this pathetic cherry picking you accuse others of?"

For what it is worth, you did not surprise me. You wrote approximately 130 words in response, and did not answer the question that I asked you. You did fall back on the "this could be this and that could be that, and you need to know the translation...." So now I will ask you the question again, what was the non-existent god's merciful warnings to the 70,000 that were supposedly killed to punish David? As a bonus question, provide the biblical reference that states that the census taken by David is a sin.

2) Let me rephrase my question regarding Jews. Jews do not believe in jesus. Jesus said the only way to heaven is belief in him. Do you concur that all jews do not go to heaven when they die?

Tom Vouray said...

@Tony

And thanks for your clarification of the words creation versus conception. So your position is that if you create something you have the right to destroy it. Question: assuming your position is correct, is it always moral to destroy something you created?

Mike said...

@James Bond

"I am in agreement that everything is subjective"
 That’s nice, but being in agreement with something doesn't make it true.

" it’s a subjective thing to put yourself in someone else’s shoes, and a good thing."
 Oh? Why is it good?

"..  The goodness or badness of an act is pretty obvious in most cases.."

 Oh yeah? So how do you judge what is good or bad? Whats the standard you judge by? Oh yeah it's subjective.  If I transported you into a society where everyone agreed it was o.k. to kick you in the head once a week because you were a new comer there, would that be o.k.? Hey they all agree on it.
 
" any act that brings pain or suffering to people unnecessarily is generally agreed upon is undesirable and should be avoided."

  O.k. I see, so we just need to get enough people to agree on something. So pain and suffering is a bad thing, why? In the atheist scheme you're just a mass of molecules, a bag of evolved protoplasm. An accidental by-product of a chemical soup from a universe just coming into existence by itself, unguided and without purpose. What's wrong with a bag of molecules smashing into another bag of molecules? It's only matter reacting with matter. You say you're an atheist but then borrow from the Christian worldview to argue against us. You don't seem to understand that for evolved protoplasm there is no good or bad. You just have whatever happens happens.

I'm going to explain something to you my friend. I'm not here to explain God's actions. Because everthing God does is good, and as Jesus said, "Only God is good." So I don't have to be God's defense attorney because he's not on trial, you are. And you're already condemned. Because whoever does not believe in Jesus is already condemned -John 3:18. You're like someone on death row waiting for the sentence to be carried out. That happens after you die. " If you don't take advantage of the pardon God offers you through faith in Christ, then you'll face what it says in Revelation 20:15-  " And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." And as Christians we don't want that for you. God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, he'd rather that you turn from your way and live. Ezekiel 33:11

Mike said...

@ Tom vouray    "..This is the exact same logic as abortionists Do you believe abortion is acceptable?"

Hang on hang on we're getting ahead of ourselves here. You made an appeal to logic. Why should anything be logical?
 Oh... and since morals are being brought up, do you yourself believe abortion is acceptable? Since you object to God killing people and all. Are you yourself o.k. with killing a baby in the womb?

"..is it always moral to destroy something you created?"
 
Uh oh! Again we're getting ahead of ourselves. Why should anyhing be moral or immoral to a bag of protoplasm to put it crudely?

"..Jesus said the only way to heaven is belief in him.."

Oh, so you're quite aware of what Jesus said. So you have no excuse on judgement day then.

james bond said...

Mike:

Here is why subjectivity is a good thing:

It's good because just about everything we do is subjectively based: we determine the nature of an act according to our experience, our knowledge, our natural empathy with our fellow human beings and empathy with other animals, we know how to be inclusive and how to consider what is best for everyone. All factors concerning our happiness and well being are subjective considerations. If we left everything to defer instead some sort of posited external, allegedly "objective arbiter", it means we can ignore all of those humanist concerns and just subscribe to what is alleged to be an objective standard. But there is no such thing.

Your head-kicking example is the worst kind of ignorance imaginable. That's not how society works, as I think you should know. We conform to limits on our freedom to do whatever we like because we know nothing would be possible without those restrictions. We do not want others to be hurt, so we punish violent people out of self-concern, if nothing else. I don't know what sort of primitive society you must be from, but mine is democratic and has evolved over many many generations. We have laws that ensure no one, insofar as we can stop it, gets kicked in the head. Laws arrived at through common consensus and much deliberation, careful drafting and much practice. Laws that go back a long way, laws that are drafted with the good of society in mind. It would be a very stupid society that did not protect all of its citizens from harm. Our society is not stupid. Well mine isn’t, I don’t know about yours. We are social animals and know that what is best for all of us is the protection of everyone. We empathise with our fellow social beings and family members and our laws reflect our empathy. I feel sorry for you not understanding the way cultured, educated, secular first world societies function. I feel sorry for you not smart enough to know that the most secular countries in the world like Sweden, or Japan, have the lowest crime rates and the best social welfare programs. No head kicking there, or if there is head-kicking, the perpetrators are jailed. Not rocket science, Mike. And has nothing to do with your god.

You ask “pain and suffering is a bad thing, why?” Refer back to what I just said. Social animals minimize pain as much as possible because that helps society and happiness to flourish. Yes, we are here through circumstances as yet beyond our complete understanding. We make our own purpose and find our own reasons for being. If you can’t do that without an ancient book of nonsense that was written in a very ignorant time, that’s your own tragedy. Some of us think for ourselves and are very happy in our lives.

The rest of your god-referent nonsense is irrelevant. Your god, as your laughable bible shows, was nothing but a brutal and murdering asshole. Luckily it is fictional and can be completely ignored.

Tom Vouray said...

@Mike

First and foremost, welcome to you and Tony to the forum. Out of curiosity, what brought you to this forum?

Back to your questions. I am most definitely against abortion, that is why I brought the question up.

In my opinion, which is not necessarily a fact, when believers are asked about the morality of a (non-existent) god killing people, they almost always fall back on "he created them, so he can kill them" answer, which completely side - steps the question of morality. We are not asking IF he can do it, we are asking SHOULD he do it.

Regarding the question of jews, it seems to be a major failure to declare them "the chosen people", kill all the other folks to bring them to the promised land, and then send them all (supposedly) to hell, because they don't follow jesus. Something to think about. Unless it makes you uncomfortable.

Last but not least, yes I do prefer to think logically whenever I can.

A p said...

This great ref., because God is same today ,as yesterday!!! except for the new covenant of Jesus Christ and his heavenly and earthly Church!!!!God is the same today as he was yesterday ,a Rock,unchanging Rock forever. Thanks again great ref.of old bloody testament;so we know what to expect from God ,today in this day and age!!!he had too set the standard early,back then dealing with Satan,for today's ,end of days ,war!!!! Thanks beloved

james bond said...

A p

That's just preaching. Pretty banal and old fashioned fire-and-brimstone preaching at that. Not going to convince anyone on this page. Not worth the time it took to write it. Good try.

Tom Vouray said...

"God is the same today as he was yesterday, a Rock, unchanging Rock forever"

Please provide a biblical quote from god to support this position.

tony Schaapman said...

Ton vouray
God is the same today as he was yesterday, a Rock, unchanging Rock forever"
Hebrews 13: 8. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and foreverror.

Deuteronomy 32: 4. He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

Tom Vouray said...

@tony

Unfortunately, neither of the verses are direct quotes from god or jesus. Therefore, that makes the position of the author(s) assumptions or opinions. Can you provide a verse that supports the original position that is directly attributed to either god or jesus?

tony Schaapman said...

Tom vouray
Unfortunately, neither of the verses are direct quotes from god or jesus. Therefore, that makes the position of the author(s) assumptions or opinions. Can you provide a verse that supports the original position that is directly attributed to either god or jesus?

You have become worse than a Muslim with their ridiculous question, "show me where Jesus said, 'I am God, worship me'?
I could ask you to show me where Richard Dawkins said, “ I am an animal”, if so I will believe.
Since it is clear he did not say those exact words I win.
Grow up Tom. You look the fool with such games.

Tom Vouray said...

@Tony

No. No games. Just a simple, objective look at what is written in the bible, which is the basis of your religion, and comparing it to what your religion espouses. The result, in my opinion, is a very wide gap between what many modern believers are taught and then repeat, and what is actually written in the bible.

Since you have not directly answered any of my questions to date regarding what is written in the bible, let's shift gears. What brings you to this web site, and what do you hope to accomplish?

tony Schaapman said...

Tom vouray
Your intellectual dishonesty is glaring and is your main obstacle from finding truth.
I have no patience for it.
Any further discussion with you would be a waste of valuable time.
Here is a true statement
Psalm 107: 17. Some became fools through their rebellious ways and suffered affliction because of their iniquities.
I wish you well.

Tom Vouray said...

@Tony

Matthew 5:22.

Mike said...

@James Bond

James bond 《 If we left everything to defer instead some sort of posited external, allegedly "objective arbiter", it means we can ignore all of those humanist concerns》

 Why should a bag of protoplasm care either way? After all, in the Godless scenario, man is just a mass of matter, a resulting accident of an unplanned, unguided process that was not even aiming for him. How do humanist concerns materielize from "evolved" pond scum?

《Here is why subjectivity is a good thing:
It's good because just about everything we do is subjectively based...》

  Lol! That's very circular my friend!

 Looks like  the "goodness" of subjectivity didn't play out to well for those brutally murdered under the nazi regime or under Pol Pot's, Stalin's, Mao's etc.

《 We do not want others to be hurt, so we punish violent people out of self-concern...》

Why is it wrong to hurt others besides the fact that you don't want others to be hurt? Whats wrong with bags of protoplasm smashing into other bags of protoplasm? It's only matter reacting.

《 Social animals minimize pain as much as possible because that helps society and happiness to flourish.》

 First of all I'm not an animal. And second , why does society and happiness need to flourish? Unless of course you already know the Bible is true. - And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it..." Genesis 1:28

《 Yes, we are here through circumstances as yet beyond our complete understanding..》 

For someone who admits to not having complete understanding about those circumstances through which we are here, you sure do make a lot of claims.

 《 We make our own purpose and find our own reasons for being.》

Yep, that's what people who hate God usually do, just like the Bible already says.
 " All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way.."  Isaiah 53:6

 In the end you're unable to ultimately say why anything is good or evil. All you have is circularity, subjective musings, and opinions. And unless you start with God, that's all you'll have. Because in order to make sense of your worldview, you need to borrow from mine, thus proving the inconsistency of yours and confirming mine.

BTW, if I were you, I'd refrain from hurling vulgar insults at God because the Lord Jesus said,

 " I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak." Matthew 12:36

Mike said...

@Tom Vouray

《 ..they almost always fall back on "he created them, so he can kill them" answer, which completely side - steps the question of morality.

Great news Tom, I'm not going to sidestep the morality question. What I want to know from you, and I'm not trying to be insulting, but why does a bag of protoplasm appeal to morality? In a Godless worldview all you are is a mass of matter. An accidental by-product  of an unplanned unguided process that had no purpose. How do you get morals from that?

《 Regarding the question of jews, it seems to be a major failure to declare them "the chosen people... kill all the other folks to bring them to the promised land, and then send them all (supposedly) to hell, because they don't follow jesus. Something to think about. Unless it makes you uncomfortable.》

Strawman arguments don't make me uncomfortable at all. It's clear you don't understand the Bible. You've got to first explain to me why "evolved" pond scum would appeal to morality?

William Penn said...

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". Since God created everything, He has the right to do whatever He wants with his creation. If He destroyed all people he can and is not immoral in doing so because they are his creation. Man overestimates his value. Someone created this website. They have the right to put what they want on it. The words that are written can't say to the creator/owner of the website that they don't like the layout, the color scheme, the fonts selection or even how they are used and the messages that they are conveying. The creator/owner could shut this site down and they have no say in the matter and don't deserve one. This site exist at the desire of the creator/owner. As visitors we don't have a say in it.

Also, just an aside, if God doesn't exist, where would the idea of God originate from? Everything thought comes from something real. Anthropologist have never found any civilization of atheist. Ever!

An just for fun, I challenge you to disparage satanist as if they aren't real and that the being that they worship is not real. I challenge you to ask them to put a curse on you. Since its' not real it won't work anyway right? In fact , visit their sites and make the request in person and see what actually happens to you.

Tom Vouray said...

@Mike

So we want to mix evolution with morality? An interesting topic, glad you brought it up.

We are not just masses of protoplasm (I prefer the term "ugly bags of mostly water". If you don't get that reference, google it). We, like many forms of life on earth, such as the dinosaurs, have brains. Our brains have the ability to think, reason, learn and generate new concepts. In addition, we have a quality known as empathy. That allows us to think in terms of others' feelings and welfare. Morality is linked to the empathy that most folks feel for their fellow persons. Without empathy, one is basically a sociopath, society would be difficult, if not impossible to maintain,

In my opinion, morality arises from a combination of our brain's ability to learn from past experiences and our empathy for others, and we formulate a set of rules (globally, locally, and personally) that we apply in our interactions with others. And as James Bond stated, the definition of what is moral and what is not is subjective and not absolute, and constantly changing.

Counterpoints?

Tom Vouray said...

@William:

"Also, just an aside, if God doesn't exist, where would the idea of God originate from?"
Where did the idea of Santa Claus come from? You underestimate the imagination of man.

"Man overestimates his value."
So I guess the death of jesus was no big deal, right?

"And just for fun, I challenge you to disparage satanist as if they aren't real and that the being that they worship is not real. I challenge you to ask them to put a curse on you. Since its' not real it won't work anyway right?"
Any Satanist or believer of any religion has the ability to post on this site, and be subjected to the same level of discussion that is applied to christians. And sure, go ahead and put a curse on me, I will volunteer.

Tom Vouray said...

@James and Mike:

"《Here is why subjectivity is a good thing:
It's good because just about everything we do is subjectively based...》

  Lol! That's very circular my friend!"

James, I have to give this one to Mike, sorry!

james bond said...

Mike

James Bond


As to your question that goes“Why should a bag of protoplasm care either way?” I feel sorry you think we atheists have such a poor definition of us. People (like all other animals) are much, much more than bags of protoplasm. That’s just your theistic way of trying to cast aspersions on atheists. We are very very highly involved animals. Sure, cut us up in bits and all you may see is meat, bone and fluid, and under a microscope, the most amazing helixes of deoxyribonucleic acid carrying the cell's genetic information and hereditary characteristics via its nucleotides. But this is a simplification: we are, thanks to millions of years of animal evolution, a most complex and fascinating life form.

Calling us a mass of matter or evolved pond scum shows how very limited your outlook is. I assume you now about luca, the most recent population of organisms from which all organisms now living on Earth have a common descent. Now you can call the original organism pond scum if you want to, that’s entirely your right, and it probably is not much different. But it’s quite wonderful how after the splitting of cells billions of times over and over allowed, finally, that through the divergence of life into myriad living creatures, we eventually became us.

When you ask “How do humanist concerns materielize from "evolved" pond scum?” you again show your limited outlook. It is precisely because we evolved far from our origins that we developed into human beings with brains that enable us to think along parameters no earlier life form has ever had the capacity to do. That’s a wonderful thing. You need to get your mind out of the pond scum and really look at what we are now.

You make fun of my point about subjectivity because you don't understand it. I see Tom Vouray also pointed out (thanks, Tom) my circularity on this point. It was just a bad sentence. I meant that we are subjective and that is good because the outcomes of being subjective are good. We care for ourselves and our health and happiness. Very personal, very subjective. And we reason that others also care for themselves. And we relate to that, empathise with it. We also love our family members and friends and extend our subjective self-care to them, and further than that to complete strangers and society as a whole. Not rocket science. Good survival trait, empathy. Continuing with my reply in my . next post.

james bond said...

Mike: continuing my response,

Totalitarian regimes have political agendas that suppress empathy in the furtherance of their goals. They limit empathy to particular people and normally they lead to violence and chaos and ultimately they fail because no one is safe within them. They implode. Yes, they did pursue subjective aims, so subjectivity per se is not enough. You also need apparatuses set up to monitor the things governments are doing, and ensure that the greatest good for everyone, insofar as that is possible, is being met. Good democracies have hundreds of checks and safeguards and the corrupt or ruthless dictators are generally short lived. Especially now, when violence and cruelty is so easy to expose with new technology.

“Whats wrong with bags of protoplasm smashing into other bags of protoplasm?” Answered that one, Straw man argument. Silly.
“I'm not an animal.” Yep. You are an animal. Humans eat, shit, fight, fuck and interact with other human beings. We do just what the other species of animal do, and in some cases much more cruelly and destructively. We are intellectually more highly evolved and think more deeply, but we are merely advanced apes. And we should feel very lucky and proud of ourselves for being so. Study apes and look at how very similar they are in shape and body and social habits. And don't be ashamed of your ancestor apes, they were essential in our progress to what we have become.

“ Why does society and happiness need to flourish?” Society flourishes if we are happy because we want more of that. For ourselves, for our children, our friends and people generally. I want everyone to be happy.

Not bothering with your bible quotes. You can quote that ancient nonsense to support anything, including slavery, rape, torture, murder and genocide. Toss it in the gabage where it belongs.


“That's what people who hate God usually do” LOL. I don’t hate god, it does not
even exist. I can’t hate what is not there. I dislike the fictional character as your book portrays it, but it’s just words on paper.

“In the end you're unable to ultimately say why anything is good or evil.” I am, however, able to say that I think anything that brings the greatest happiness to the greatest number of people, and does not hurt others is generally going to be good. You judge goodness by its consequences. Not rocket science to observe that pain is horrible, cruelty is horrible, suffering is horrible and the general consensus of most societies is that if we can avoid those things as much as possible we see people thriving, doing creative and wonderful things, bringing happiness to the world, and looking after this planet. Pretty easy to see evil: usually it means the opposite.

“All you have is circularity, subjective musings, and opinions.” No, I have a rational mind and think everything through to its effects upon society. You, on the other hand, are prepared to trust and ancient book cobbled together by men with no knowledge of astronomy, (thought the earth stood on pillars) or geology, or anthropology, very little about anatomy, nothing about the internal workings of our brains, which advocated horrors and mutilations, murders and beheadings, said we should put witches to death, which threatened and bullied people into submission, disrespected women, punished people for wearing mixed fabrics and eating certain types of foods, and invented a brutal god that is really little different from the gods of countless other religions, all of which claim with the same certainty as you that theirs is the true god.

And no, I do not borrow from your religion. Morals predate your bible, which did not invent new principles of morality.

“I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak." Matthew 12:36 You can threaten me all you like with any phrases from your ancient book of fables. Go nuts. I don’t care. I don't believe you. Thanks for our talk, Mike.

Tom Vouray said...

@Mike:
Why do christians have morals, and why do they encourage others to adopt their morals?

Mike said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mike said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mike said...

@ James Bond

<< People (like all other animals) are much, much more than bags of protoplasm.>>

Yes I know that. That's because man was created in the image of Almighty God. But the atheist who denies the creator has no basis to say such a thing, because if he doesn't start with God, he's only a bunch of molecules that somehow just came together without a mind behind it all, no purpose, no plan. So when he says such a thing, he confirms that God exists.

<< thanks to millions of years of animal evolution, a most complex and fascinating life form. >>

Yeah that's the lie you bought into because you've rejected God. Time is the magic ingredient for the evolutionist. He believes that given enough years, primordial soup will eventually just "evolve" all by itself without any guidance, and finally result in humans. This is hilarious! It takes quite a bit of blind faith to swallow such a fairytale. But man swallows it because he loves his sin, and doesn't want to answer to a holy God, who he already knows exists.

<<..No, I have a rational mind..>> Yeah again, primordial soup given enough time will eventually lead to the forming of rational minds. Lol!

God so aptly puts it, The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.Psalm 14:1
I'm not trying to insult you with this verse. The fool in this case is someone that knows better but still ignores the truth.

<< When you ask “How do humanist concerns materielize from "evolved" pond scum?” ... It is precisely because we evolved far from our origins that we developed into human beings with brains that enable us to think along parameters no earlier life form has ever had the capacity to do. >>

More begging the question instead of answering the question. How does primodial soup without any plan or guidance finally lead to rational thinking human beings with morals. I know, it's magic! And you call the Bible nonsense?

Mike said...

@ James Bond - Continuation

<< I meant that we are subjective and that is good because the outcomes of being subjective are good. >>

Your begging the question. Where do you get your standard of what is good from, since you already stated that everything is relative?
Jesus said, "..no one is good except God alone."- Mark 10:18 So I know where my standard of good comes from. All you have is preferences and opinions which somone else can contradict, because after all, it's all subjective right?

<<..Good survival trait, empathy..>> So why is surviving good?

<< Why does society and happiness need to flourish?” Society flourishes if we are happy because we want more of that. . >>

You're just going in a circle. Why does society need to flourish? For what purpose? What's wrong with all of society eventually dying out?

<< I am, however, able to say that I think....>>

And that aptly sums up your viewpoint. Because if you don't start with God, all you have is what YOU think. The same as any other atheist.

Jesus said to repent and believe the Gospel or you will perish. Repent from the original Greek word means to change your mind.

You need to change your mind about God, who created all things and believe in his Son Jesus Christ, who died on the cross to pay the penalty for your sins. He is the judge of the living and the dead.And God proved it by raising him from the dead. Jesus is either your judge of your saviour. I hope the latter for you.

Mike said...

@Tom Vouray

As Christians we know and understand that God is the standard of Goodness and that his perfect law reflects his character. Our morals come from God. He is the one who declares what is right.

It's not so much about trying to get people to adopt our morals as it is about reaching people with the transforming power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Through which people become reconciled to God, receive forgiveness of sins, eternal life, and the power to live a life pleasing to God.

Tom Vouray said...

@Mike

"As Christians we know and understand that God is the standard of Goodness and that his perfect law reflects his character. Our morals come from God. He is the one who declares what is right. "

1) Are you saying god is perfect? Please provide a biblical reference from god (and not a man) to support your assumption.

2) You are stating that the morals provided in the bible are perfect. Are they complete, and should man ever add or alter any morals from the bible?

Tom Vouray said...

@Mike

Following up on a previous topic...............

"Since you object to God killing people and all. Are you yourself o.k. with killing a baby in the womb?"

"I am most definitely against abortion, that is why I brought the question up."

According to John 14:6, jesus is the only way to god, heaven, etc. But each and every baby that is aborted (or dies of other reasons before being born) never gets to know jesus, so according to the bible, they all go straight to the lake of fire, brimstone, etc.

"God is good."

I have a different definition of "good" than you do.

Once again, I request that you provide a biblical reference to support your counterpoints.

james bond said...

Mike:

“Where do you get your standard of what is good from, since you already stated that everything is relative?” I mentioned I had a utilitarianist approach, perhaps not in so many words. We look at what is good according to the wants and the needs of society, and in the best democratic societies, we arrive at a consensus on such matters, over long periods of time, and with much thought, deliberation, study, observation, discussion, and looking at the consequences of what we have tried. We keep tweaking and reforming and introducing new measures as circumstances change, until we get the best solution for the greatest number of people. The best solutions are those that bring the greatest health, happiness and prosperity to the greatest number of people and which help society to flourish. Not rocket science, and not infallible. But sensible. Where do you get this mythical objective standard from, on the other hand? An ancient book written in a time of profound ignorance about almost everything, when your jesus character performed exorcisms on people with illnesses, and when witches were burned. The objective standard you god practised (allegedly) recommended stoning adulterers to death, approved of slavery, rape and genocide. Some standard that one, eh Mike?

I am ignoring you bible quotes. May as well quote from Harry Potter.

“So why is surviving good? Why does society and happiness need to flourish?” you ask. If you are implying that survival is not good and society and happiness are unimportant to us Mike, then I wonder why you want us to obey your god. Surely the rules and the biblical dictates are also founded on the assumption that these godly things will make people happy and make for a flourishing world. If you reject the idea that we should want to survive and be happy, we may as well die. It’s an observed fact that people crave health and happiness and love. The consequences of an abundance of those things inevitably leads to progress, creativity, beauty, and general good feeling. If you need to question what good are those things, fine, go somewhere and die or stop valuing them, that’s your right. The rest of us will be happy. TO BE CONTINUED>>>

james bond said...

MIKE: continuing....

“you don't start with God, all you have is what YOU think. The same as any other atheist.”....... No, Mike, I am not alone, so I don’t just go on what I think. I am one of billions of thinking people and yes, all we have is what we, collectively, think. But we are very intelligent, many people much much more intelligent than me, and working together with our highly evolved brains, we achieve a great deal.

Again you threaten me with repent or die, and I laugh at such infantile threats. And you finish with simple assertions about your god and your jesus. But you have never been able to justify following your god or your jesus over the thousands of other gods and prophets invented by men. They all say what you are saying, with the same amount of evidence to back up their assertions. That is, none. Give me one good reason to believe yours over any other religion.

Thanks for talking.

Mike said...

@Tom Vouray

《 Are you saying God is perfect? 》

The Lord Jesus said God is perfect. I'm only repeating something he already said.
" You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48


《 You are stating that the morals provided in the bible are perfect..》

Christian morality is based on God's law/word/teaching, especially the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 " The law of the Lord is perfect reviving the soul " Psalm 19:7

" Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar."  Proverbs 30:6

Mike said...

@Tom Vouray

《 According to John 14:6, jesus is the only way to god, heaven, etc. But each and every baby that is aborted (or dies of other reasons before being born) never gets to know jesus, so according to the bible, they all go straight to the lake of fire, brimstone, etc. 》

You set up a strawman. John 14:6 doesn't imply that babies go to hell. The Bible doesn't  say that babies end up in hell.

《 "God is good." 》

Yep, that is correct sir! Though your sarcasm is duly noted. A true statement nonetheless.  

Jesus said, ".. No one is good except God alone.." Mark 17:18


《 I have a different definition of "good" than you do.》

Lol,  " an ugly bag of water " has no reason to call anything good or bad. That's illogical captain!  I never heard that one, because I only liked the original Star Trek. Funny nonetheless.

 In order for an atheist to call anything  evil or good, he has to borrow from the Christian worldview. Because the origin of good is God. Matter on it's own is only matter, you don't get good or bad. I repeat, in order to make sense of your worldview, you've gotta borrow from mine. 

Mike said...

@James Bond

《 We look at what is good according to the wants and the needs of society》

Good in comparison to what? And what society?

《  and in the best democratic societies, we arrive at a consensus》

Ah, so it's by consensus. So another society can come up with another consensus.
Since as already stated you believe in subjectivity, one society's best will be different from another's. So best by who's standard?

《   The best solutions are those that bring the greatest health, happiness and prosperity...》  Says who?

《  The objective standard you god practised (allegedly) recommended stoning adulterers to death, approved of slavery, rape and genocide...》

First of all, you have no basis to call anything wrong or right. As astrophysicist  Neil deGrasse Tyson once stated, "We are  not figuratively,  but literally stardust." So how do you get good and bad in a scenario without a creator? All you have is matter reacting with matter.

《 So why is surviving good? Why does society and happiness need to flourish?” you ask. If you are implying that survival is not good and society and happiness are unimportant to us》

Not at all , I  because I have a reason to say why survival is good or anything else for that matter, because I start with Almighty God. The atheist on the other hand has to borrow from the Christian worldview to make sense of his.

Mike said...

@James Bond -continuation

《 I am one of billions of thinking people and yes, all we have is what we, collectively, think.》

Having great numbers of people agreeing on something is not the basis for determining whether something is good or bad.

《 and working together with our highly evolved brains, we achieve a great deal.》

You still haven't given me a reason why the mass of matter in your head should call anything good or bad. If you don't start with God, your brain is just a meat machine with bio-electrical chemical reactions taking place, inside a body that was an accidental by-product of a universe just coming into existence by itself, unguided and without purpose.

《 They all say what you are saying, with the same amount of evidence to back up their assertions. That is, none.》

《.. But you have never been able to justify following your god or your jesus》

You just did that yourself. Because without God, you couldn't even make sense of those statements.

There is only one God sir, the real one. You know it and I know it. But I'm following him and you're not.
 
" And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." John 17:3

" For all the gods of the peoples are worthless idols, but the LORD made the heavens."
Psalm 96:5   

james bond said...

Mike: 《 We look at what is good according to the wants and the needs of society》

Good in comparison to what? And what society?
Alright, I am talking of a democratic society much like the one in which I live. There are thousands of these around the world, all founded upon the principles of working towards a country of communities that do the best for their members, bringing them to highest possible levels of health, happiness and productivity and causing the least harm or unhappiness to other members, and to other animals and to the planet we all depend upon to live. Not hard to work out that it is “good” to work to goals that bring about those outcomes.

“Ah, so it's by consensus. So another society can come up with another consensus.
Since as already stated you believe in subjectivity, one society's best will be different from another's. So best by who's standard?”

I think you can see that although societies differ in many customs, it’s pretty obvious that the societies that care about their members in the ways I’ve been discussing are those that last the longest and achieve the most. Broadly speaking, most democracies have similar aims, and share and learn from each other. Who is to say the American way of life is better or worse than Japan’s? You can make arguments for both. But it doesn’t matter. Both countries put the good health and the happiness of their people first, and as the world becomes increasingly more global in its thinking and its connectivity, the similarities between cultures increase. Laws in my country and in Japan do not depend on any biblical dictate to determine what is to go into them. The legislators look to the outcomes and to experience and work out what is best for the majority. No need for a mythical objective standard.


“First of all, you have no basis to call anything wrong or right.” Yes I do. If something brings unnecessary pain, suffering, harm, illness, and unhappiness to people or other animals, it is very most likely to be wrong. And if happiness and health and love are enhanced by an action then that action is more likely to be right or good. Not rocket science, Mike. We are naturally empathic and social creatures, we care for ourselves and caring brings about good outcomes for all.

CONTINUING IN NEXT POST

james bond said...

Mike: continuing from last:

“So how do you get good and bad in a scenario without a creator? All you have is matter reacting with matter.” No, you do not have matter reacting with matter, you have highly sophisticated brains capable of astounding work working together, communicating, experimenting, observing, discussing, analysing, achieving the most amazing things all the time. If you care to reduce that to an abstraction and call it matter reacting with matter, then go nuts. I call it very complex interactions between very very complex beings.


“I have a reason to say why survival is good or anything else for that matter, because I start with Almighty God. The atheist on the other hand has to borrow from the Christian worldview to make sense of his”: What you are starting with is an abstract proposition for which you have no shred of evidence. You avoid answering my questions about why your particular version of a god is any more credible than the thousands of other gods. You never address this one. Why is your god any more believable or real than Zeus or Poseidon? Why is the Q’uran wrong and your bible right? And no, I do not need to borrow from your christian world view for my morality or anything else. As I have said, the morality of the bible is disgusting. If you approve of rape, slavery, genocide, murder and eternal torture, you have a pretty foul set of morals simply because your bible approves of all of those things. My moral code is far better than the christian one.

Tom Vouray said...

@Mike:

"You set up a strawman."

Nope, No strawman. Just the words as written in the bible.

"John 14:6 doesn't imply that babies go to hell."

Actually it *explicitly* does, as per jesus:

"No one comes to the Father except through me."

I know that the concept of unborn babies and Jews going to hell can be difficult to contemplate, that is why most believers don't like to think about it. Simply (figuratively) waving your hand and calling it a 'strawman' does not change what is written, or the implications thereof.

"The Bible doesn't say that babies end up in hell."
Ah, now you change gears - your position is that if it is not explicitly written in the bible then it is not true. Please keep this in mind when asserting that James or I might go to hell, as neither of our names are listed in the bible as going to hell (at least not the King James version).

Tom Vouray said...

@Mike:

"You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48"

You know what? Even though jesus (supposedly) said this and not god, I will concede the reference. I will note that you did not provide a (supposedly) direct quote from god that he was perfect. And that is appropriate, as there are multiple references to god admitting his mistakes in the bible (perhaps 'perfect' is relative).

Thanks for stating your position regarding the laws and positions of good and evil as contained within whatever version of the bible you read. Next question: How did you spend your day on October 28th? No specific details required, just a few general lines that describe what you did that day. Thanks!

And yes, the original Star Trek was better than most of the follow on series.

james bond said...

Mike:

“Having great numbers of people agreeing on something is not the basis for determining whether something is good or bad.” I never said that it did, and I said we often do bad things, so you are setting up a straw man here. What I said was in answer to your complaint that “you don't start with God, all you have is what YOU think. The same as any other atheist.” And my point is that we all only have our thoughts, you included. It’s just that it helps to have the thoughts and input of millions of people and together we achieve much with the thoughts we share, and we have no need of a god you assert exists on the basis of not a shred of evidence. We don’t necessarily get things right the first time, but we keep on working and we do get lots of things done and done extremely well for the world.

“If you don't start with God, your brain is just a meat machine with bio-electrical chemical reactions taking place, inside a body that was an accidental by-product of a universe just coming into existence by itself, unguided and without purpose.” And here again you exhibit a need to diminish what we are by comparing our brains to a piece of meat with some electrical impulses. Almost like you have low self esteem, which is not surprising given the disgusting things your religion tells you about man and what a terrible sinner he is. You need to get over that shit and appreciate the great wonder and magnificence of what we have evolved from through natural processes. Atheists are in constant states of fascination about life and mankind, whereas the religious seem to have this nasty, miserable view of men. You can’t conceive of an accidental world, you are used to seeing things that have been made by someone. So you decide the universe must be like a toy made by a man. But science has discovered that something can come from nothing: look at Lawrence Krauss’s work involving a field of virtual particles called gluons, randomly popping into existence and disappearing again.

“Without God, you couldn't even make sense of those statements.” Again, an assertion that has not the slightest shred of evidence to support it. Show me there is a god. Prove it. You would be the first person in the world, EVER, to have done this. So I will not expect a lot. In the meantime, I listen to scientists, I observe the natural world and am fascinated by it. Nothing to do with a god. Unless you can prove it. Please prove it, Mike. Proof positive. Anything at all.


“There is only one God sir, the real one. You know it and I know it. But I'm following him and you're not.” Still waiting for evidence Mike. Give me evidence. Or tell me why I should disbelieve the Hindus. Or the Sunnis. Or the Calathumpians. And telling me that “I know it” is just arrogant and asinine nonsense. I could as easily tell you “You know I am right and you are wrong.” And you would not accept that. So why should I take your assertion about me knowing you are right? Another fail, Mike.

I will ignore your bible quotes once again. I can quote people too: “And do you think that unto such as you, A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew, God gave a secret, and denied it me? Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!” :- Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

Mike said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mike said...

@Tom Vouray

《 Actually it *explicitly* does, as per jesus:》(re: babies go to hell)

Sorry sir it does not. And Saying you didn't setup a strawman doesn't make it so.

  You'd be wise not to put words in the Lord's mouth. You obviously don't understand what scripture teaches and what it doesn't teach, because you're only concerned with putting God on trial. But he's not on trial, you are. And you're not the judge of what he does. He's  the judge of what you do.  Acts 10:42

《 I know that the concept of unborn babies and Jews going to hell can be difficult to contemplate》

Ahhh, I don't contemplate babies going to hell, because they don't. They go to the Father through Jesus Christ just like John 14:6 says. But that's a topic for a Bible study, and I don't do Bible studies with atheists.

One thing is clear though, whether you are Jewish or Gentile. Whoever rejects Jesus Christ will have to pay for their sins in the lake of fire.

《 Ah, now you change gears - your position is that if it is not explicitly written in the bible then it is not true》

You really don't understand my position because you don't understand the Bible. You'd rather just read something into it because you want to somehow judge God. Good luck with that!

" If one wished to contend with him, one could not answer him once in a thousand times."  Job 9:3

Mike said...

@Tom Vouray - continuation

《 Please keep this in mind when asserting that James or I might go to hell, as neither of our names are listed in the bible as going to hell..》

Yet another strawman. You're a bit mixed up, it's not the Bible your name needs to be in. It's the book of life.

" And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15

《 You know what? Even though jesus (supposedly) said this and not god, I will concede the reference.》  Jesus is God.

And God makes NO mistakes.

《 How did you spend your day on October 28th?》

Went shopping for a couple of food items, went to the gym, went to a family member's birthday get together. If your question has to do with whether or not Christians keep the sabbath day ( Saturday). That's also a topic for a Bible study.

Mike said...

@James Bond

《 ..appreciate the great wonder and magnificence of what we have evolved from through natural processes》

In an uncreated purposeless  universe, why should a mass of matter appreciate anything?

《 ..what we have evolved from through natural processes..》

Oh, I guess that's what Krauss was eluding to when he said, "People are people but their ancestors were not people. If you go back sufficently far enough , your ancestor was a fish."

 Hohoho hahaha o.k. Mr. Krauss. Tell me something, this so called natural process, I guess you just mean nature. How did it know what to do? There's obviously a goal in this scheme. To evolve implies there's a goal. Pond scum- fish- apes- ya I know I'm leaving out some stages. Then eventually we make our way till we reach a rationally thinking human being. No conceived plan, no help, matter to humans, amazing but "true". Lol


《And here again you exhibit a need to diminish what we are by comparing our brains to a piece of meat with some electrical impulses.》

Since you made reference to Krauss.  Krauss even said we should celebrate the fact that we are more insignificant than we thought and we need to create our own meaning and purpose.

Dawkins asks, “Why do we exist? What is the purpose?” He states that these are silly questions and that, in the truest sense, there is no meaning and purpose. We should simply try to leave the earth better off than it was before we existed.

Hilarious, if there is no meaning and purpose why should we leave the earth better off?

《You can’t conceive of an accidental world..》

Neither can you. But because you love your sin, you hate God and buy into the lie that the universe made itself.

《 you are used to seeing things that have been made by someone.》

So are you. If I told you your computer, tablet or phone made itself you'd say that's nonsense. If I told you the Canon 5d mark iv camera was just the result of matter plus time plus chance, you'd ask me what I had been smoking. But for the human eye which is more sophisticated than any camera you say, " It formed all on it's own." This is hilarious, totally absurd. But atheists would rather embrace absurdity than submit to the God they know exists.

Mike said...

@James Bond - continuation

But science has discovered that something can come from nothing:

" .. God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist."
Roman 4:17

《 If something brings unnecessary pain, suffering, harm, illness, and unhappiness to people or other animals, it is very most likely to be wrong...》  Who says?

 Why are pain, suffering, harm, illness and unhappiness wrong? In a universe that according to the atheist has no purpose? All you've been giving me so far are subjective opinions, whether yours, a certain society's, or a mix of both.

 《And if happiness and health and love are enhanced by an action then that action is more likely to be right or good...》

Again who says? I as a Christian can say that, because God said to love your neighbor as yourself. But you have no basis, only your opinion. Your standard of  "good" is purely subjective.

  《Not rocket science Mike..》

 Yeah surely not. How do you get love from matter alone? Unless of course you already know that man is not just a mass of  matter without purpose, but has been created in the image of Almighty God, who is love. All you've been doing is borrowing from the Christian worldview. Because without God, you can't make sense of yours.

You asked for evidence for God. Your very request already does that. Because without God, you couldn't even make sense of your request.

I'm gonna explain something to you. Evidence presupposes knowledge, logic, and truth.
How do you get those without God? For from him and through him and to him are all things. God says you already have enough evidence to know he exists, and have no excuse.

 Remember the scenario you've embraced. Universe comes into existence by itself. It's unplanned, unguided, without purpose and purely matter, and man is merely an accidental by-product  of this process.

All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Christ. He is as the Bible says in the original Greek- the Logos -the Word who is God and made everything. Logos is where we get our English word logic from. Jesus Christ is where logic knowledge comes from, he is the reason and logic behind the universe, and he upholds it by the word of his power.

God commands you to repent. That means to change your mind and believe in the Lord Jesus. If not, you'll face his wrath. And Lawrence Krauss won't be there to hold your hand. God is patient, giving you a chance to repent. But his patience is not forever.

Tom Vouray said...

@Mike:

"If your question has to do with whether or not Christians keep the sabbath day (Saturday). That's also a topic for a Bible study."

Ok Mike, let's conduct a bible study. Here is the 4th commandment of the ten commandments:

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it."

So, by your own admission, you have violated the fourth commandment, perhaps every Sabbath of your life. (And if you are a cattle rancher, your cattle may have violated it as well.) All of the historical references that I have found note that it was man, not your god, that changed the weekly day of worship from the 7th to the 1st day of the week; however, no one has ever changed the Sabbath from the 7th day.

So let's conduct a bible study together, and you start by providing a biblical reference that allows believers to change the requirements of your perfect bible and god.

Tom Vouray said...

@Mike:

"And God makes NO mistakes." (Mike, 2017)

"This is easy." (Tom, 2017)

"Of every tree of the garden surely you may eat;
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
not you shall eat from it;
in the day of your eating from it surely you shall die". (Genesis 2:16-17)

"And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."
(Genesis 5:5)

And in a departure (for me) from quoting the bible, and jumping into your ongoing debate with James regarding morals: In my opinion, it was a mistake of your god to create two people without morals or a sense of right versus wrong, and then expect them to make a moral decision. And then punish them, and supposedly everyone else, for it.

james bond said...

Mike:

“In an uncreated purposeless universe, why should a mass of matter appreciate anything?” You are the one saying life is purposeless to atheists, but atheists find an abundance of purposes in this universe. If you’re capable of finding or creating purpose without the help of ancient books I feel sorry for you. I know many a great person who works not only for the satisfaction and joy of the work they do but for the beautiful things they create and the joy they give to others. Probably the best purpose in the world.

"People are people":- now we are, of course, but life can all be traced back to luca, the last universal common ancestor. You need to do some more reading on this: you obviously have not studied the subject of life on earth enough. I have no problem with having evolved from a fish and before that from even more basic forms of life. You have so little understanding of evolution and speak of it like it thinks and plans ahead. Evolution does not have a goal, it is not a mind that thinks to itself, “ah, what will I evolve next?” That’s religious thinking. Evolution occurs because some animal traits best suit the environment in which that animal lives and so those which lack that trait are the first to die out. I see you can’t lift your mind beyond pond scum again. I feel so sorry for you. “No conceived plan, no help”:- yes, Mike, that is exactly it. No plan. All planning that exists in the world is what we plan for ourselves. And we plan some pretty wonderful things. Not all of them good, but lots of them extremely good.


“Krauss even said we should celebrate the fact that we are more insignificant than we thought and we need to create our own meaning and purpose.” Yes, and I agree with him. The universe does not give a shit about us, because it’s not sentient, so we plug on alone but with one another and we create great purposes and find huge happiness and satisfaction if we choose to.
.

“Dawkins asks, “Why do we exist? What is the purpose?” He states that these are silly questions and that, in the truest sense, there is no meaning and purpose. We should simply try to leave the earth better off than it was before we existed.” Yes, great man, great thinking.


“Why should we leave the earth better off?” Because some of us care very much about posterity and our own children. We love them.


Yes I can and do conceive of an accidental world. Your notion of sin is just silly. There is no such thing as sin, except in the fictional world of the christian religion.


“If I told you your computer, tablet or phone made itself you'd say that's nonsense.” That’s because we know who made them. They lived, breathed, gave interviews, and functioned in the same world as us, we saw them making what they made, we can go to the premises at which they work, if they’re still with us. Unlike all the gods all the religions of the world claim created the world. No evidence it existed. None. Not a shred. Just stories told by men. Yes, the human eye, as all other animal eyes and organs evolved, gradually becoming more and more appropriate for the animals’ needs in its special environment. Pretty easy for anyone but christians to understand, it seems.


“Why are pain, suffering, harm, illness and unhappiness wrong?” How many times do I have to answer this question for you, Mike? Because we happen to be here, we happen to love our children, our friends, our family and our communities. We dislike pain and suffering to ourselves because it hurts. We feel pain for others because we love them and don’t want them hurt. Not rocket science.

james bond said...

Mike: continuing....

And so far, you have given me no indication of what god’s objective standard is. Will you please

“Your standard of "good" is purely subjective.” As is yours, Mike. Your thuggish bible filled with brutality, cruelty, rape, murder and genocide is a collection of stories told by men. Ignorant men at that. Paul had no actual contact with your alleged jesus, he merely had visions or delusions. Pretty subjective I think. What rule does your “objective” standard of good give us? That murder is bad? Then why does god murder so many people? And order the murders of so many? Oh, dear, your god forgot its own standard.
“How do you get love from matter alone?” Bit of a senseless question: I’ve addressed the concept of what it is to be human, whereas you seem to see us as things until god waves its magic want and makes love for us. Sounds like the fairy tale it is.

“Because without God, you can't make sense of yours.” Atheists have always made sense of the world, usually far more sense than any religious person.

“Evidence presupposes knowledge, logic, and truth.” No it does not, Mike. We need minds in order to recognise and interpret evidence and discover the truth using logic and observation.

“How do you get those without God?” The same way we get anything else without a god. Without god.

“Remember the scenario you've embraced. Universe comes into existence by itself. It's unplanned, unguided, without purpose and purely matter, and man is merely an accidental by-product of this process.” I have not claimed to know how the universe came into existence, I leave that to scientists, and they are discovering more and more all the time. Fascinating stuff.

Again, not addressing your silly bible references. I don’t believe there was ever a jesus christ. All myth, borrowed from countless earlier myths. Nonsense. The day you show me a talking snake, a talking donkey, a man who lived 900 years, virgin births, people walking on water, coming back from the dead, raising others from the dead, parting whole oceans, speaking worlds into existence, performing all kinds of other miracles, then you might have some basis for your beliefs. Until that day, not buying a word of it.

Mike said...

@James Bond

《 You have so little understanding of evolution and speak of it like it thinks and plans ahead. Evolution does not have a goal, it is not a mind that thinks to itself, “ah, what will I evolve next?” That’s religious thinking》

No, it's just common sense. Of course evolution has no mind and has no goal because God is the creator of all things and the mind behind creation, not evolution. But if you reject God, all you have is matter and energy forming rocks,  then chemical soup, then eventually fish to apes to men without any instruction. I know I know it's magic!

《  “No conceived plan, no help”:- yes, Mike, that is exactly it. No plan. 》

For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Romans 1:21

《 All planning that exists in the world is what we plan for ourselves. And we plan some pretty wonderful things.》

"Claiming to be wise, they became fools.." Romans 1:22

《Paul had no actual contact with your alleged jesus, he merely had visions or delusions.》

Ho ho, so you're a Bible scholar now! Lol, nice try.

《“Evidence presupposes knowledge, logic, and truth.” No it does not, Mike. We need minds in order to recognise and interpret evidence and discover the truth using logic and observation.》

Hilarious answer because you didn't negate what I said. I'm gonna explain something to you. When you ask for evidence, it's because you want to "know" the "truth" and you'll use "logic" to evaluate the information to arrive at a "knowledge" of the "truth". If you don't presuppose these things, asking for evidence makes no sense.

 Without God you can't account for knowledge, logic and truth. These are immaterial, not made of matter. But with evolution, all you have is matter acting by itself. So when you ask for evidence, you prove God exists.

Mike said...

@James Bond - conclusion

《  I don’t believe there was ever a jesus christ. 》

 
Hahaha, why embarrass yourself?  No serious historian buys into such nonsense.
No scholar in any field of relevant expertise doubts Jesus’ existence. This is not even an issue for scholars. You must be believing in the "Jesus never existed myth" lol. Yep, that's what can happen when you get your information from the internet.

There is no scholar in any college or university who teaches classics, ancient history, new testament, early Christianity, who doubts that Jesus existed. He is abundantly attested in early sources.

《 All myth, borrowed from countless earlier myths. Nonsense》

Ah, here we go again! Regurgitate another myth why don't you? The myth that Jesus is a copy from ancient myths has already been debunked sir. But because of the internet, has resurfaced, through videos like zeitgeist. These guys and others like them rewrite the myths to try and make them  match Jesus.

 That's what happens when you get your information out of a cracker jack box instead of legitimate historians and Egyptologists. But you buy into that garbage because you hate Jesus.

 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20

As you can see, God says you have enough proof and have NO excuse. He doesn't need me to prove he exists.

 Hope you change your mind about God, and believe in his Son Jesus Christ, and receive forgiveness for your sins. You said there is no such thing as sin. Sorry, that's not what the Lord Jesus said. You'll be in for a rude awakening. Everytime you answer on here you're sinning by the words you're saying.

Thank you for the talk sir. I'm out ,no more replies. I don't have the time.

Mike said...

@Tom Vouray - conclusion

In regards to the sabbath day:

 it's clear that you're confused, that's because you don't understand the Bible. You've got a bigger problem than understanding the Christian's relationship to the old covenant. Your sin problem.

You need to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. When you become a believer, you can join other Christians in Bible studies concerning these topics and many others.


Your quotes from Genesis don't prove God made a mistake. The only mistakes are yours in not understanding the text.

《《《In my opinion,》》 Yep, that's about all you've got when you don't start with God.


《 it was a mistake of your god to create two people without morals or a sense of right versus wrong, and then expect them to make a moral decision. And then punish them, and supposedly everyone else, for it.》

But in the Godless evolutionary scheme, what on earth is a mistake to a bag of water?

Thanks for your time Tom.

james bond said...

Mike:

“No serious historian buys into such nonsense.” Obviously you’ve actually not studied ancient history, nor examined the very scholarly works disputing the alleged historical reality of your jesus. You need to do some serious work, Mike. There is absolutely zero historical evidence for the actual existence of your jesus. I’m sorry, but do some work, some reading, some study. People with much greater minds and knowledge than yours who have earned PhDs in historical studies of ancient times are a much more reliable source for me than someone like yourself who simply asserts stuff on the basis of nothing. Dr Richard Carrier for one. Read his books.


“There is no scholar in any college or university who teaches classics, ancient history, new testament, early Christianity, who doubts that Jesus existed. He is abundantly attested in early sources.” There are some such scholars, you can easily find them. Carrier, for one. Very well credentialed, very astute, highly intelligent and very logical. He does not argue that jesus definitely did not exist but makes extremely convincing arguments that make it about 75% probably that he did not. And the alleged early sources you refer to (without actually citing) that are supposed to refer to jesus have all been ably debunked. All of them. Josephus is the one usually quoted by people trying to find a real jesus, but if you care to I can refer you to the many debunkers of every one of his alleged allusions to your christ. I think you need to stop just saying stuff is so, and show me what you actually base your views on please.


“All myth, borrowed from countless earlier myths. Nonsense.” Again, you give nothing to justify your view. I can show you why they appear to be borrowed if you wish.

“The myth that Jesus is a copy from ancient myths has already been debunked sir.” No it has not. By whom? Give me sources, don’t just assert.

“That's what happens when you get your information out of a cracker jack box instead of legitimate historians and Egyptologists” Give me the sources Mike: you’re a great one from asserting but never give the names and works of these people.”

“But you buy into that garbage because you hate Jesus.” I don’t hate your jesus because I believe he never was and you cannot hate a fiction. I may as well hate Spiderman. Who is far more interesting and entertaining than your jesus.

“As you can see, God says you have enough proof and have NO excuse. He doesn't need me to prove he exists.” Well if that’s the case, get him to prove to me that he exists. If he is so bloody omnipotent, why is he unable to do that? Give you one guess.


“ You'll be in for a rude awakening.” More empty threats from you. I am not a child and am not scared of your mythical stories about what will happen to me for not believing something a bunch of uneducated people in the desert believed thousands of years ago.

Thank you for the talk

Tom Vouray said...

@Mike:

Thanks for your responses to my questions. They were just what I expected, and I am very happy with them. And I think you are happy with them as well, so it is a win-win scenario!

As a side note, I don't think I made it clear that I am not trying to 'convert' you; I am not an 'atheist evangelist'. I respect your beliefs, and your rights to your beliefs, even if I do not agree with them. I also think you are trying to make the world a better place (in your own way), and you are to be commended for that. Many believers try to convert others to either increase their church membership and/or increase the number of people who share their beliefs, because it helps them reduce their own doubts about what they are taught.

So, you keep placing emphasis on what happens after everyone dies (in fact it appears to be your ONLY argument for being a believer). Next question: what is the purpose of reward and punishment?

james bond said...

Tom Vouray:

Hello Tom. I agree with you on that point, Tom, I am also not attempting to convert anyone and I am astute enough to know that conversion is rarely what happens in these exchanges. It can, but it's rare. As with political propaganda, usually both sides end up only more entrenched in their own beliefs. Unlike you, though, Tom, I do not repsect the beliefs of the devoutly religious. I do respect the people who hold them, because I think I understand the psychology behind why they hold them. But the beliefs themselves I cannot respect. I don't have a shred of respect for the content of christianity, I find it infantilising, insulting, and irrational, for starters. So I can not afford any respect at all for the belief itself. I do, however, respect and feel sorry for those who believe such arrant nonsense. Because they have been brainwashed into their beliefs. Also unlike yourself, I don't actually believe christians as a group are trying to make the world a better place. I think they are mostly trying to consolidate a position on what they think the world should be. And the world they want is not the world that is a better one. Their view of what the world should be is homogeneous, regimented, strict, adhering to outdated concepts and based upon ignorance and superstition. I don't think that could possibly be in any way better. I guess they think it will but they are using very antiquated criteria of betterment. I guess you and I are pretty much in agreement on most other things. Anyway, aside from all that, how are you Tom Vouray?

Tom Vouray said...

@James

I am doing well, I hope the same for you. I know how much you abhor violence but it seems that both America and Europe are experiencing an elevation of terrorist attacks. I suspect for several reasons that you are located in the British Isles, so I was wondering how the terrorist activity is perceived 'over there'.

Not directly comparing Christian evangelists to ISIS, but their blind, unquestioning beliefs in what their religious leaders tell them is quite disturbing. Of course, they will never see it that way.

From my perspective, evangelical believers are definitely in the minority in America. Most Americans that attend church show up Sunday morning (not the sabbath!), throw some money in the plate, sing 3 hymns and then go out to eat. Some churches do good things locally, some do good things on a bigger scale, and basically do not bother other folks. But the more 'rabid' representatives, such as the ones that post here occasionally, are more or less shunned outside of 2 or 3 protestant denominations.

What did you think of my observation that (supposedly) god expected people (Adam & Eve) with no morals to make a moral decision and then punished all mankind when they failed? Never thought about that until Mike brought up morals.

So have you graduated yet, and out in the cold cruel work world yet?

james bond said...

Tom:

I don't like to reveal exactly where I live publicly, but you're not far wrong. In a way. I'm not American. I've been to the US and I loved it, though not so much the food. Mind you, we were not dining at expensive places. But everywhere we went, we were grossly over provided with food, most of it not all that healthy. No wonder obesity is such a problem there.I'm sure lots of people must eat a nutritious diet and avoid the saturated fats and huge portions.

Yes, got my doctorate,thank you, very pleased with the outcome, though so far being a Dr has not actually brought monetary improvement. All I have is a nicely framed degree. I will give it time.

It is good to hear that for the most part the churches are not a bother, though from what people like Matt Dillahunty and the others on the Atheist Experience tell me, there is a lot to be done yet to curtail the powers of the faithful. I wonder if the tax exemption on the church will ever be repealed. We need to do that in my country too.

And of course I agree with your point about Adam and Eve, so well done. That's just one of the many many many absurdities of the bible. So many stupid stories: I mean, why should god drown everyone, man woman, child and animal because men displeased him, when he is an omnipotent god? Apparently omnipotence has its limits, and does not extend to being persuasive, or parental, or using time-out techniques, or just using his super powers to implant an obedience command inside the brains of all of his creations? If he can speak the entire universe into existence, something like that should be a piece of piss. I guess it would mean he'd be admitting he screwed up in the prototype. Which is similar to your own point: forgot to make people morally good. Damn that omnipotent memory thing.

But of course under scrutiny, nothing in the bible holds up.

Anyway, keep up the dialogues here and talk soon, Tom. cheers.

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